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9Mm Carbine Beats Shotgun For Novices
#1
to include those who just can't/won't bother to achieve proper levels of skill with a handgun. I consider any longarm a poor choice for "home defense", because you probably won't have it with you when it's needed. It's also a pita to have to hold while you hold a kid or use a phone or a light, or while you check under beds, or behind clothes hanging in a closet. You won't have it as you answer the door, take out the garbage or the mail, get the paper or mow the lawn.



That having been said, a 9mm carbine, like the $200 HiPoint, using CorBon 100gr PowRBall jhp's, hits as hard as a 6" 357 Revolver, which is to say, plenty hard enough. Yet its recoil, flash and blast are so "tame", (even indoors) as to make .22lr practice = 9mm skill. The 9mm is welcome at indoor ranges, the shotgun is not. If you really think she can handle that pump gun, have her fire it with one hand sometime! Also, have her fire it in a small enclosed area, without any ear- protection, in the dark, and see if she still likes it. :-) All the above are quite likely defensive scenarios. If things were to go as you'd like, she'd never need a gun at ALL, right?



The CorBon loads achieve nearly 1700 fps in the carbine barrel, giving them 650 ft lbs of poop. HiPoint's red-dot sight is pretty handy for novices, too, and it's inexpensive. Pair the High Point with a used, $60 Marlin M60 .22 tube-fed auto for practice and "shtf", and you've got a very low-cost, highly effective combo that can be practiced-with a lot, and which yields real ability for that low cost practice.



Most people are ignorant of the fact that a "riot" barrel (no choke) only has 1" of patten-spread (with buckshot) for every yd of range from the muzzle. Most rooms are at most 5ydsx5 yds. Even if you are in the far corner, cattywompus from the attacker in the far corner, the range is only going to be 7 yds from the muzzle, due to the length of the gun. That means that the pattern is only going to be 6" wide, so you have to aim it nearly as closely as you would with the rifle.



Buckshot costs 50c a shot, 9mm milsurp is 20c a shot, and buckshot has a lot of blast and recoil. So which do you think will get practiced with more, hmm? The 9mm carbine is easily handled with one hand, and a bit of bb gun or AirSoft training will quickly teach her to toss up a soda can and hit it with the 9mm. Her knowing that she can deliver that sort of performance leads to her having confidence under pressure, which is all to the good. The .22 rifle can make her quite competent to 100m outdoors, too (with the 9mm carbine).
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#2
[quote name='clant' date='20 November 2010 - 07:38 AM' timestamp='1290267527' post='497476']

to include those who just can't/won't bother to achieve proper levels of skill with a handgun. I consider any longarm a poor choice for "home defense", because you probably won't have it with you when it's needed. It's also a pita to have to hold while you hold a kid or use a phone or a light, or while you check under beds, or behind clothes hanging in a closet. You won't have it as you answer the door, take out the garbage or the mail, get the paper or mow the lawn.



That having been said, a 9mm carbine, like the $200 HiPoint, using CorBon 100gr PowRBall jhp's, hits as hard as a 6" 357 Revolver, which is to say, plenty hard enough. Yet its recoil, flash and blast are so "tame", (even indoors) as to make .22lr practice = 9mm skill. The 9mm is welcome at indoor ranges, the shotgun is not. If you really think she can handle that pump gun, have her fire it with one hand sometime! Also, have her fire it in a small enclosed area, without any ear- protection, in the dark, and see if she still likes it. :-) All the above are quite likely defensive scenarios. If things were to go as you'd like, she'd never need a gun at ALL, right?



The CorBon loads achieve nearly 1700 fps in the carbine barrel, giving them 650 ft lbs of poop. HiPoint's red-dot sight is pretty handy for novices, too, and it's inexpensive. Pair the High Point with a used, $60 Marlin M60 .22 tube-fed auto for practice and "shtf", and you've got a very low-cost, highly effective combo that can be practiced-with a lot, and which yields real ability for that low cost practice.



Most people are ignorant of the fact that a "riot" barrel (no choke) only has 1" of patten-spread (with buckshot) for every yd of range from the muzzle. Most rooms are at most 5ydsx5 yds. Even if you are in the far corner, cattywompus from the attacker in the far corner, the range is only going to be 7 yds from the muzzle, due to the length of the gun. That means that the pattern is only going to be 6" wide, so you have to aim it nearly as closely as you would with the rifle.



Buckshot costs 50c a shot, 9mm milsurp is 20c a shot, and buckshot has a lot of blast and recoil. So which do you think will get practiced with more, hmm? The 9mm carbine is easily handled with one hand, and a bit of bb gun or AirSoft training will quickly teach her to toss up a soda can and hit it with the 9mm. Her knowing that she can deliver that sort of performance leads to her having confidence under pressure, which is all to the good. The .22 rifle can make her quite competent to 100m outdoors, too (with the 9mm carbine).

[/quote]



Buckshot also has nine to 15 projectiles in a single sight picture and trigger pull. The significance of this is the multiple rounds for a single trigger pull greatly increase the capacity at close quarters ranges for incorporation of important body structures into the wound paths.



With that carbine, you'd have to dump half a mag to accomplish the same thing, and hope that the operator has the semblance of mind to maintain good shooting fundamentals through the stressful encounter.



The whole "what will get practiced with more" argument is pretty much debunked... how can you argue that you WOULD practice with one thing, and wouldn't with another. They are both long guns, the only difference is the caliber and action type. You either train as you fight, or you didn't train at all... and the piper will be paid when he comes a-knocking.



I can use my phone, light, check in confined spaces, etc with my rifle. Falls back to proper equipment and training with that equipment.



I *do* have my rifle with me, as well as the wife is covering the doorway at a different angle, depending on the time of day that my door gets knocked on. Rest of the time, I always have my pistol that I have put many rounds through training, and more often than not my wife does as well.



The biggest step is mindset. If the individual you're thinking of training doesn't take it seriously, then they aren't going to train properly, are going to quit, and when the chips are down they're going to choke and fold.
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#3
i think the carbines in pistol cartridges start to make sense if long distance (SHORT TERM!) displacement is a factor, especially with small people - such as your wife or child withdrawing to an outbuilding or a neighboring wood, etc.



that stated,



the accuracy issue on the 12 guage doesn't wash with me - that's a training issue - it's a travesty that people are waiting to shoot IMHO by bringing any weapon up to their eyes, when a grabbed 12 gauge, rifle or holster-cleared pistol can be just made parellel with the ground to get instant elevation, and peripheral vison will do the rest, particularly in low light. ...and if the shot is low, all the better - human autonomics on low shots usually makes them tuck over, and the follow-up shot will likely be a brainer or walk down into the vitals from an oblique abngle - both hits being far mopre likely to kill and decapaciate quicker than a perpendicular shot at the same vitals.



have fun picking a 9mm out of Junior, who was on the other side of your target, too. - one more reason to hate central hallways in hour house (mine are ont he side BTW).



not to mention the pin hols 9mm likes to make do very little for secondary flak from wallboard and furniture and such, which can work to a counter-ambush's advantage.



a lot of advanced skills aren't advanced at all - the trainers and gunpreachers just won't teach them because they don't know or are afraid of making warriors for some reason.



a meth'd out home invader can have a magazine emptied into them with 9mm - you will see daylight, and they'll still be coming - but a 12 Gauge is a deal breaker at close ranges, and that's what is most likely - no one takes #4 buckshot at 7 yards and lives for long - at 2 yards, it is an off switch, even if you just sheer an arm off or interrupt a leg significantly.



i shoot #4 buckshot or steel BB (follows you down the hall and around some corners) through a duckbill choke on a pistol-gripped shotgun - i call it my "pistol of choice" - i'd go against pistol vector any day in a parking lot full of cars, in a clearing, and definitely inside with that thing. it's like flying swords that cut your feet off when you are behind cars, shockwave you when you are off target, get you when you crack a solid oak door open for a peek, etc.



a knee to the neck will do the rest, if they are still wiggling, and it is justified, especially if you forgot that you did it conveniently. <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pirate.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pirate:' />





i've seen #4 do its work. i like it.



i like it a lot.





whatever.



women and children have been using 12 guage to good effect for more than a hundred years at least.



a female acquaintance killed an invading Alaskan Bear with nothing but her Sorels and 12 Gauge on.



if you can do that to a bear, you can do that to a human being.



don't fix what ain't broke.



that's what i think.



vec
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#4
[quote name='vector001' date='20 November 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1290281117' post='497519']

a female acquaintance killed an invading Alaskan Bear with nothing but her Sorels and 12 Gauge on.



vec

[/quote]



Thanks for the word picture... nice.
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#5
[quote name='plattj1' date='20 November 2010 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1290282204' post='497523']

[quote name='vector001' date='20 November 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1290281117' post='497519']

a female acquaintance killed an invading Alaskan Bear with nothing but her Sorels and 12 Gauge on.



vec

[/quote]



Thanks for the word picture... nice.

[/quote]



she was a beautiful woman too.



i terribly fought the urge to kill her husband and take her for myself (i was a newly-divorced heathen bachelor at the time).



i asked her if she got dressed to skin it out - she said sure, she put a hat on.



some folks probably know her here, so i can't say where she lives.



a unique woman, and a keeper, to be sure.



vec
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#6
[size="2"]You are of course entitled to your opinion. I see some philosophical and physics problems with your post, Clant.

[/size][color="#1C2837"] [/color] [color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"][size="2"]To begin with, the concept of defense requires the most effective tool you are capable of using effectively. Anything "budget" or "surplus" is suspect. I don't mean that a working surplus weapon is a bad choice. Actually several designs are very effective; I'm referring to ammunition. Personally, I will not bet my life on surplus ammo. I will buy a quantity of first rate ammo and test it for reliability in the appropriate weapon. Next, I wouldn't bet my life on a "cheap gun" unless it's the ONLY thing available right then (in the moment of need!) Caliber and power? Who gives a hoot! You need to be able to reliably perform under stress and put effective hits on an uncooperative target, under less than ideal circumstances. Adding a cheap RDS to a cheap rifle is actually a gremlin trap. It is a system more likely to fail than better built and designed equipment. Now what is the novice going to do when the hi-point chokes and there is no dot? That cor-bon equals zero even though it is a great round. [/size][/color][/color]

[color="#1C2837"][color="#000000"] [/color][/color] [color="#1C2837"] [/color][size="2"]

On to shotgun myths. The reason "m[/size][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]ost people are ignorant of the fact that a "riot" barrel (no choke) only has 1" of patten-spread (with buckshot) for every yd of range from the muzzle" is that it is simply not true! It's a rule of thumb that keeps a whole lot of foul alive. My personal Cylinder bore patterns at about 3" at ten yards with 2 3/4" Rem (green) lead 00. That does not equal 1"/ yard. On to the next thing:[/size][/color][color="#1C2837"][size="2"] "...so you have to aim it nearly as closely as you would with the rifle." Even if your barrel and round do put out a broad 7" pattern in your scenario, you actually have a HARDER job of aiming. You have to get that 7" pattern on the attacker. You are responsible for every 00 that misses. It will go right through a residential wall. You are under less than ideal circumstances, are you sure of your target and what's behind it? [/size][/color]

[color="#1C2837"] [/color]

[color="#1C2837"] [/color] [color="#1C2837"] [/color] [color="#1C2837"][size="2"]There are other considerations to this whole thing but I'll leave it at that for now.[/size][/color]

[color="#1C2837"] [/color]

[color="#1C2837"] [/color] [color="#1C2837"] [/color] [color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Muddyboots[/size][/color]
Shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased!

Thus do we refute entropy. -S. Robinson



Communication is a Survival Skill! So is critical thinking!





When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know," the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything—you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.



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#7
I wish I had a short barreled pump shotgun - no pistol grip, just regular straight stock because you can still point it at a door in firing position while carrying it with only one hand... while you're opening the door <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' /> Ya can't do that with a pistol grip. I know guys who can CQB double tap with pump shotgun, one from basically waist level and the second from aimed, off the shoulder fire.



I have used my pump shotgun to CUT tree limbs 4" in diamater from >15 using measly #7 shot. I do mean CUT... as if if the tree LIMB was severed with a 10 foot long, DULL saw blade. Aimed at the neck, I think shotguns can outright decapitate w/ a couple of shots (just my opinion, BTW) and yet it is still "safe" to use with sheetrocked walls. It is a wonderful, non-obvious, dichotomy...
{  "Trust in Jesus but carry a sixgun in the bathroom."€  Phantom  }
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#8
I'm not biting
"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but rather the one most adaptable to change."

Charles Darwin



http://www.selfdefenseinitiative.com
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#9
I'm thinking a 20 ga semi-auto would make a great barricade weapon aimed at the doorway - it ain't gotta be a 12. If I have a carbine, it'll be in a rifle cartridge. The spread of buckshot is highly dependent on the brand of ammo and your barrel - I've tested some that had a 10" spread and some that had a 1.5" spread at 10 yds.
Steve
  • Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but it can get there real fast.
  • Losing an illusion makes you smarter than finding a truth - Ludwig Borne
  • Always remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.
  • This is more fun than beating a tree hugger with a dead baby seal.
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#10
[quote name='alukban' date='20 November 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1290291828' post='497537']

I wish I had a short barreled pump shotgun - no pistol grip, just regular straight stock because you can still point it at a door in firing position while carrying it with only one hand... while you're opening the door <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' /> Ya can't do that with a pistol grip.

[/quote]



sure ya can.



hold the weapon backwards with your elbow under the receiver and your thumb for the trigger.



that's stipulating that you even bother holding onto the shotgun, instead of firing it remotely.



vec
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#11
I'm not playing anymore... Vec cheats!! <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' /> <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/down.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':down:' />



I dunno, I'd be happy with a simple Glock so I'd be happy with a 9 mm carbine too. I wouldn't feel underarmed with say a KelTec SUB2000 with the big stick mag. I guess you should have both the shotgun and the 9 mm carbine for when you want to go through walls and when you run out of ammo.



If both were in front of me and there was a murderous home invasion about go down, I'd probably pick up the one I was shooting the most recently or whatever I had more ammo for. It kinda depends on what "home" is, I guess. If there were 40 thugs lined up behind my family compound's hollow block wall, I'd probably pick the 9 mm carbine because I'd want to be aable to reload with a quickness. If I were at home in an apartment in a city, the shotgun would probably be it - regular break-ins would be maybe 2 guys if not just one. If I were in a motor home going cross country, I would have an AR and a loaded up chest rig. I can see good points with a 9 mm carbine...
{  "Trust in Jesus but carry a sixgun in the bathroom."€  Phantom  }
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#12
[quote name='vector001' date='20 November 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1290302448' post='497557']

[

sure ya can.



hold the weapon backwards with your elbow under the receiver and your thumb for the trigger.



that's stipulating that you even bother holding onto the shotgun, instead of firing it remotely.



vec

[/quote]



Funny you mentioned that... That is how I was told to shoot if a Grizzley Bear was chasing you! (much better than firing over your shoulder, while running like hell) <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



BTW, my 2¢, I'll take a shotgun in CQB... (especially in my home, when others are present)



Pix
So. Indiana, Metro Louisville area...



"Hope for the best... prepare for the worse"



In other words, "Pray to GOD... But row for shore!"



http://www.dougpixley.com
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#13
More than anything, door design can help or hinder your through-the-door cover... my door is a solid core door with cosmetic indentations front and back... they're about 1/2" deep. Actually angled very nicely for assisting with indexing a long gun as necessary.



I also have this odd tendency being a firefighter for what little living i make... I have a ton of doorchocks, and I not only lock, but chock my doors... and if I'm greeting someone ESPECIALLY when I am expecting noone at my home... the door chock is about 2" from the door.. kick it or try to force it and you're going to be a fumblef'k of you just got shot trying to break and enter while my door kicked your arse and you caught it from 2 directions. Best part?



My wife's "unexpected guest" cover position with my AR, our shotgun, or her .454 lever action happens to discharge directly through the door, into whatever's behind it, and has our deck and the ground as a very nice backstop. Gas main is rather interestingly placed away from the main entrance so even a generous 120 degree range fan on that entryway won't hit anything but meat or dirt.



Not that I've thought out home defense/invasion plans. It might also help that the trooper that would be responding during a nighttime party event also happens to have been a good troop I served with...



I don't put money on that counting for much beyond maybe a traffic stop though. The fact that a cellphone on speakerphone so 911 is recording someone trying to B&E my house while we're hollering LEAVE NOW LEAVE NOW YOURE FRIGHTENING ME STOP STOP STOP.....might have a bit more play as well.



Training is paramount. I still say if you aren't willing/able to train with X then I'll put money you still won't even with Y. Train as you fight, and go ugly early. Shotgun wounds, close range centerfire rifle wounds... are ugly.



Handguns are great and give you some options you don't have with a long gun, but they give you many detriments that you DON'T have with a long gun.
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#14
OK guys how about some input from a woman? Think you can handle this? <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



Give me the shot gun in a skinny minute! I have used both. Nothing like the sound of racking another shell in a pump after a blast. Any little punk will stop dead in their tracks after hearing that wonderful sound, from a mile away. If I have to pull out a long gun in a room I want the shot gun. If I have to use my hand gun I let them get to far.



I used to live down a road that was long and in the woods a long way. I have had the chance to use a shotgun in the house and left a few pellets in a butt. All I can say is I am alive today thanks to that sweet little 12 ga. I would leave the doors open in the spring and had a visitor. I grabbed the gun swung and shot. <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/2guns.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':2guns:' /> The sting left him alive and running. Another gun would have not done the trick.



Otter
Remember some people are alive simply because it is illegal to shoot them.



A liar and a thief are one and the same.. A liar steals the truth.
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#15
+1 on the shotgun. I live in an apartment, so when something goes bump in the night, out comes the 12ga with birdshot. Just happened last weekend actually. Woke up to someone rattling my front door and messing with the lock at about 1am. Turned out to be a drunk neighbor thinking it was his door, and a few choice words shouted through the door fixed the problem. But the shotgun was in my hands within about 5 seconds of waking up. Even with birdshot I would have to be very careful about what direction I was shooting. One direction is 4 layers of drywall before the next apt across the stairwell, but the other direction is only 2 thin layers of paneling. I keep my 9mm pistol handy at night as well, but the shotgun is definitely my first choice for the safety of others and destruction of the bad guy.



Jared
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