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Stupid Question Time.
#31
Well.. ummm.. I'm about ... 57 (in August) and I remember hearing preaching about the Rapture when I was probably 4 or 5 years old. That would have been in about 1957 or so... so it's older than the 70's.
#32
We are way to Westernized/Christianized in our thinking... Actually more to the point- there are too many people feeling their way around the bible instead of knowing. Faith has nothing to do with feelings- its about knowing. Knowledge leads to faith, faith leads to works, works leads to understanding, understanding leads to wisdom, and it is wisdom that leads to the fear of the Lord. Psalm 111:10 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.



Rapture... there is no such word in the bible...



Rapture is definitely a Christian doctrine- one that is recent... and one of many that I flatly disagree with it... and if I am wrong- great- I would hope to be prepared which ever way the pendulum swings.



Revelation 13:4-7 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 ¶ And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.



It is given to the beast power to make war with the Saints... I can only guess the saints mentioned here are those people who are found in the Book of Life. Those who keep the commandments of God... if Christians or anyone else is raptured that are considered saints- then who are these saints that the beast will go to war with?



Revelation 7:13-14 13 ¶ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.



Came out of the great tribulation... does not say escaped the great tribulation... does not say saved from the great tribulation. I believe the rapture theory to be a dangerous doctrine and may very well be the reason for why Yeshua spoke these next words...



Luke 18:7-8 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?



That question from Yeshua is not a question... but a statement. I wonder how many people would keep their faith after the moment for rapture has come and gone and the Son of God is no where to be seen, but yet the tribulation comes like a flood and the realization sets in there is no rapture... I would dare say many by the millions will lose their faith and drown in the darkness of the world. I hope that never happens... but there are too many dire warnings about the end days about how few people will make it. Some may think what kind of god would... consider the days of Noach where one man and his family are delivered while what millions of people perished? Even just a million is a big number for only 8 people to be delivered. What are we compared to God? Mere puffs of wind.. we are lower than dirt.



I have to ask- has anyone looked around to see the moral state we are in... and yet we have more churches and synagogues than ever before- what good is it doing. The youth today is nothing like the youth I grew up with. I see alot of dead men walking- no life in their eyes- no purpose- just empty nothingness.



Matthew 24:10-12 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.



If we are going to be raptured why such warnings from the Son of God like the ones below...



Matthew 24:15-22 15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understandSmile 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except [color="#FF0000"]those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved[/color]: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



Revelation 20:4 4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



If you read all of Revelation 20- you will find the context of the thousand year reign of the Messiah is here- on earth. Why would Yeshua return to this earth to rule if he has already taken the saints "home" so to speak. Then everything is returned to the Father to spend eternity in Heaven... that is if you believe what the good book says.



You should also read Isaiah 66 which details the return of Yeshua and what things will be like on earth after His return- the new moon will be observed, sacrifices will resume, the true priests (Levites) will resume their duties...



Some churches support their rapture theory by stating they have replaced Israel and are the bride of Christ... yet Revelations is very clear about who the Bride of Christ is...



Revelation 7:1-8 Revelation 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.



The perspective we need to hold is that the bible was written by the Jews- really Hebrews- written for the Hebrews and has been preserved in blood by the Hebrews- God's chosen people. There is not a "Gentile" author in the bible anywhere.



John 4:22 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.



Having been Christian for the early part of my life... I know this is one verse that has never been mentioned in any church I ever attended. In Yeshua's own words- salvation is of the Jews. Israel is the time clock counting down Yeshua's return. Yeshua says himself what will bring His return.



Matthew 23:37-39 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.



If I had nothing else- that statement from Yeshua has so much in it... but the short of it is, He is speaking to/about His people- the Chosen people. Israel is the sand clock running out of sand that will bring the return of the Messiah. Not the Christians... and not for a Rapture. Pray for the Jewish people to say "Baruch Haba Bashem Adonai" to see the return of Yeshua.



Didn't mean to put down so much... yet I feel like I have barely scratched the surface.



Anyways- just my two cents...
#33
[quote name='Annie' post='313554' date='Dec 29 2008, 11:04 PM']Well.. ummm.. I'm about ... 57 (in August) and I remember hearing preaching about the Rapture when I was probably 4 or 5 years old. That would have been in about 1957 or so... so it's older than the 70's.[/quote]



More like the 1800's --- recent as compared to how long the bible has been around. But the rapture doctrine has really taken off in the last few decades which is why it seems so "new"... But from what I have read- references to the rapture are supposedly not found much earlier than the 1800's... but I am no Phd...



I seem to recall something about a woman having a vision of a rapture which gave rise to the doctrine... but its late and I don't feel like researching that now... maybe someone else knows what I am talking about.



Time for bed...
#34
No, the word "Rapture" is not in the English bibles. It is however in the Latin Bible. It is from that text that we have the carryover into our modern English theology and use of the word. It is like the use of the term "Trinity" - a term not found in the Bible.



The concept of the Rapture is in the Bible. The term "Rapture" is not found in the English translations, however. The various forms of the Greek verb harpazo were translated by English scholars into such phrases as "caught up" (1 Th 4:17; Rev 12:5), "take by force" (Matt 11:12), and "catcheth away" (Matt 13:19).



The Latin Vulgate, however, translates harpazo from the Greek into various forms of the Latin verb and noun rapere and raptus. Thus, the term "Rapture" is in the Latin translation, which is a Bible, just as the English, German or any other translation is.



The word "Rapture" has the same meaning as the Greek word harpazo and the English words "caught up." One of the English meanings of the word "rapture" is a being carried away. (Websters New World Dict.; American Heritage Dict.)



Since the concept of being carried away is Scriptural, and since to be "raptured" means to be carried away, the word "rapture" is Scriptural. The fact that the English translators chose the rendering "caught away" instead of the synonym "raptured" is immaterial.



Furthermore, the Greek word harpazo and the Latin rapere are cognate words (i.e., related in origin). Cassell's Latin Dictionary (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1959, p.457) states that RAP (the stem for rapere and raptus) and ARP (the stem of harpazo) are cognates of a common stem. Therefore, the linguistic root of our English word "Rapture" is even found in the original Greek.



I could give a list of 13 scripture references, if need be, where the Greek form of harpazo is used in the New Testament.



Mike
#35
Dear Friends,



The current doctrine of Pre-Millenial dispensationalism is a pretty recent phenomenon, relatively, rising out of the American evangelical movements of the 1800s. Some mainstream denominations consider it to be heresy, or take no official position. The popularity of the "Left Behind" franchise has given it a lot of mainstream attention lately.



One thing that I would encourage everyone to remember is that christians have been making these kinds of prognostications and predictions for as long as the faith has been around- this isn't new, by any means. Read up on your history- the 1st millenium produced as much panic as our recent Y2k, if not more. When Rome collapsed, lots of folks thought that was the end of everything. (Christianity has no monopoly on forecasts of doom- but it's the one under current discussion)



A brief anecdote, if folks will bear with me. One of my officers is a devout pentecostal, and belonged to a congregation that predicted the end times sometime in the 1970s. He sold or gave away his possessions, quit his career in the Navy, and gathered with his friends to wait for the end... and... nothing happened. He still has his faith in God, and in the church, but tends to be wary of snake oil salesmen posing as holy men.



Another friend once told me "It's never been as bad as it is right now" Never?!!? Folks- there are always wars, rumors of wars, and strife. Nations rise and fall, civilisations come and go. False preachers preach, and fill the collection plate using the same tricks they always have. Don't fall for the current brand of hype.



Plan for what you can plan for, live your life according to your precepts, and remain flexible for what may come. Figure out what is likely to happen based on what has happened before, and plan accordingly.



Regards,



Don Oso
Don Oso



Now remember, boys and girls, once the pin is out, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend...



"Toast is just the beginning with your new toaster oven..." 6 Finger Jake



"Ninjas are SUPPOSED to be silent... they're like mimes...with throwing stars..." Overheard in the coffee shop



"Soylens Viridis hominenes est"



"She was the kind of girl you could really carry a torch for... along with all the other frightened villagers..."
#36
There is much disagreement about how long the"Rapture" interpretatation has been around; yet many Evangelicals--including Jenks; LeHaye; and Hal Linsay; give a pretty convincing case that the interpretation has been around since at least the second or third century AD--although it passed by the wayside for a long time somewhere along the way...



Whicn really doesn't addresss the accuracy of the interpretation, one way or the other.



.....RVM45 <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />
There are only Two Types of People in the World:



A.} People who are After My Guns;



and;



B.} People who are Not After My Guns.



Though I am forced to live in exile, in the Twenty-First century; I am still proud to be a Citizen of the Twentieth Century.



RVM45
#37
I keep hearing that 'MOST' christians in the US believe in the "rapture". I am a Christian, and have only heard of the rapture a couple of years ago. I know only one or two christians who believe in such a thing, and they consider themselves born again or evangelical.



I have never heard a reference to a rapture in the Bible.



I also do not have much patience for the 'fire and brinstone' preachings that many people are fond of. I don't believe that scaring people into being good will get them into heaven...it is what's in your heart...you need to BE a good person, not just act like one.



As for the rapture...I don't believe in it.
#38
[quote name='StormSeeker' post='313563' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:09 AM']The perspective we need to hold is that the bible was written by the Jews- really Hebrews- written for the Hebrews and has been preserved in blood by the Hebrews- God's chosen people. There is not a "Gentile" author in the bible anywhere.



John 4:22 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.



Having been Christian for the early part of my life... I know this is one verse that has never been mentioned in any church I ever attended. In Yeshua's own words- salvation is of the Jews. Israel is the time clock counting down Yeshua's return. Yeshua says himself what will bring His return.[/quote]



StormSeeker, read your post with great interest, but I have a bit of a disagreement about the bible being exclusively written by the Hebrews. Luke, who wrote his own gospel along with the book of Acts, was in fact a gentile, a Greek.

[url="http://www.bible-history.com/quotes/kenneth_s_wuest_1.html"]http://www.bible-history.com/quotes/kenneth_s_wuest_1.html[/url]



I also disagree with what appears to be your conclusion that salvation is "of the Jews." I think that the New Testament is clear that God was disappointed that many of the Jewish people did not accept the divinity of Jesus Christ. Peter had this pointed out to him in one of the first disagreements on doctrine in the early church as he was instructed by God to reach out and accept the gentiles.



I do agree with your reasoning about the Rapture...it doesn't seem consistent with the Bible. But, I hope God sees fit to save my miserable soul no matter what happens.
"...narrow is the trail and difficult the way that leads to life..." (a slightly modified Matthew 7:14)



"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction." Ronald Reagan



"Minnesota is like Siberia with family restaurants" the Coen brothers
#39
Salvation is not about being good; or doing good works; or any permutation of the above. One is saved by accepting a free work of grace that one is 100% powerless to accomplish on one's own. In the absense of this acceptance; one is lost.



No, you can't motivate people to do good, at least in the long term, by scaring them.



Once again--it ain't about good--or a relative lack of bad behavior. It is about being saved--born again.



Fear sometimes works quite well as an inducement to Salvation.



It is a sophistry that Evangelical or "Born Again" folk are some sort of fringe abberation. Mainline Christianity is Evangelical and "Born Again". Even many of the appostate denominations are Evangelical and "Born Again" in their official doctrine--even if they don't actually preach it anymore.



Once again, "The Rapture" is simply a term Biblical scholars have used to describe an EVENT that [color="#ff0000"]IS[/color] discussed in the Bible. Thessalonions mentions being "Caught up". You can call this event "The Turnip" if you want to. I don't think that turnips are mentioned anywhere in the Bible--that says nothing about the existence--or nonexistence of the EVENTS designated by the term "Turnip" or "Rapture"--or any other term you choose to denote the EVENT with.



......RVM45 <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />
There are only Two Types of People in the World:



A.} People who are After My Guns;



and;



B.} People who are Not After My Guns.



Though I am forced to live in exile, in the Twenty-First century; I am still proud to be a Citizen of the Twentieth Century.



RVM45
#40
RVM - guess we disagree on a few points! <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />



In your statement above, anyone can get into heaven as long as they accept Jesus Christ as their savior...right? I have met a lot of scumbags, cheaters, and liars who go on and on about being saved. In my line of work I know a guy who runs a prayer group at his office, is constantly quoting scripture, and talking about how he is saved. This same scumbag cheats little old ladies out of good annuities and puts them into ones that will not make them nearly enough money (money they need to LIVE on) simply so he can make a few hundred bucks in commissions.



My brother was dealing on a house purchase with a guy who claimed he was reborn and carried a bible around in his back pocket all the time. After making promises and agreements, this same jerk tried to cheat my brother out of about $10,000 extra money at the last minute. So much for acting lilke a Christian.



The above are examples of people who claim to accept JC as their saviour, but in my belief will be going straight to hell.



Also, there are people in the deep dark forests of South America who have never heard of Jesus Christ who will be going to heaven. God will judge us on our actions and our hearts. At least that's MY belief.
#41
See?
Ron Hood 6/21/11. God needed another good one for his outfit.



Plan ahead. Bring a machete.



"Then I remembered: America is afraid of cap guns, which no longer exist. Of bottle rockets and pocketknives and Islamo-Mahmuds curled beneath the bed. And America is afraid of children. Puzzled boys of eleven are led from school in handcuffs for possession of a water pistol. A cop who would do it ought to go into hiding from embarrassment, but nothing embarrases anyone any longer. Ye gods and little catfish, I thought. Bob’s right. The country is afraid. Of everything." -- Fred Reed. Free Fall: Conversations with Bob. 2010. http://www.fredoneverything.net
#42
LOL! That's wny there are so many 'religions' or religious groups out there.
#43
Being taken up to the Lord or having my head lopped off in the end.I'll take either one.What it all comes down to is faith.
#44
It is possible to lie about one's Salvation. It is also concievable that one may be mistaken--though this poses a lot of thorny questions.



Basically, being Saved makes a change. If after a reasonable period of time--some get it immediately; some take awhile longer--if one doesn't see a real change in one's--well, for want of a better term; [color="#ff0000"]oneself[/color]--then it may be time to ask yourself some hard questons about [color="#ff0000"]your[/color] salvation...



However, some folks never mature in Christ or bear any significant Christian fruit. The Bible makes reference to those who narrowly escape damnation; like a dude who crawls naked out of a burning house--saving only his skin; but none of his works.



The Bible says that all our human righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight--including the most "Saintly" of the unsaved. It also says that to God's way of thinking (which is the point of view that matters...) if you've ever commited a [color="#ff0000"]single sin [/color][color="#000000"]then you are guilty of [/color][color="#ff0000"]ALL[/color][color="#000000"] of all possible sins.



People think that because they only told a few white lies; or snuck in a few lustful glances at their neighbor's wife; or boosted a few office supplies--that somehow they are in a higher catagory than child molesters; homosexuals; and people like Jeffrey Dahmer; or Adolph Hitler.



Nothing could be farther from the truth. It takes colossal arrogance to think that you are "Better" than anyone; or more deserving of God's grace.



So although your hypothetical noble savage maybe a jolly good fellow; as the World views it; God sees him as guilty of every act of Hitler; Stalin; Dahmer; etc.



And [color="#ff0000"]if [/color]any of us aren't saved; he sees [color="#ff0000"]us[/color] that way too.



On the other hand, once you're saved, God percieves you as perfectly righteous--as if you'd never sinned--although that [/color][color="#ff0000"]"as if"[/color][color="#000000"] presuppoes that we are wiser about the matter than God.



I don't ike to get carried away. This is my last word on the topic in this thread. Some folks just aren't going to agree. I don't expect to persuade them with a few lines--but I do want my views clearly expounded.



.....RVM45 <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' /> [/color]
There are only Two Types of People in the World:



A.} People who are After My Guns;



and;



B.} People who are Not After My Guns.



Though I am forced to live in exile, in the Twenty-First century; I am still proud to be a Citizen of the Twentieth Century.



RVM45
#45
[quote name='RVM45' post='313698' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:35 PM']So although your hypothetical noble savage maybe a jolly good fellow; as the World views it; God sees him as guilty of every act of Hitler; Stalin; Dahmer; etc.[/quote]



......in your opinion/belief. Frankly, the God I believe in is not so short sighted.


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