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Stupid Question Time.
#61
Church of God in Christ (C.O.G.I.C.)



The use of the anagram is rather controversial in some circles; but that's where you'll find us online.



{Some feel that saying "COGIC" as a single word shows disrespect to Christ--because his name gets ommitted. Nonetheless, the term is widely used.}



[url="http://www.cogic.com/"]http://www.cogic.com/[/url]



.....RVM45 <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />
There are only Two Types of People in the World:



A.} People who are After My Guns;



and;



B.} People who are Not After My Guns.



Though I am forced to live in exile, in the Twenty-First century; I am still proud to be a Citizen of the Twentieth Century.



RVM45
#62
I think what has caused so much of my indecision and doubt are all the "messengers" who kill the message.



All of the ones I've seen (as a kid and an adult) all talk about Jesus coming to them in a dream and naming all the stars to them, and this horrible situation where they asked God to save them and then they felt such a wonderful peace...I can't help but think...no...FEEL...that it's all for show. Like they're placing themselves on a pedestal of some kind.



One in particular really bothered me. At my uncle's funeral, this guy was preaching and out of nowhere he screams: "AND GOD HATES A HOMOSEXUAL WORSE THAN ANYTHING!!"



Then I thought...how can I be part of a religion or belief that talks about such a great love...but all the messengers, all these "good" people; people I'm supposed to aspire to be like, preach about all the things God hates?



I've read the Bible. I love the book. I read the book of Mormon, the Qur'An...but I can't find an answer one.



I guess I'm just a lost ball in very high weeds. Maybe one of these days the Big G will see fit to shine me a light and help me find my way out. Maybe some of us are just hellbound and that's it. Maybe our day just hasn't come yet.



Innywayz...thanks for the thoughtful responses to my idiot questions from everybody who gave one. I know I can get rather taxing on the patience.



It's going to be a quiet drive home today.
Ron Hood 6/21/11. God needed another good one for his outfit.



Plan ahead. Bring a machete.



"Then I remembered: America is afraid of cap guns, which no longer exist. Of bottle rockets and pocketknives and Islamo-Mahmuds curled beneath the bed. And America is afraid of children. Puzzled boys of eleven are led from school in handcuffs for possession of a water pistol. A cop who would do it ought to go into hiding from embarrassment, but nothing embarrases anyone any longer. Ye gods and little catfish, I thought. Bob’s right. The country is afraid. Of everything." -- Fred Reed. Free Fall: Conversations with Bob. 2010. http://www.fredoneverything.net
#63
[quote name='Aitrus' post='313755' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:58 PM']for some reason, Bhuddist Monks are the ones I can't find any dirt on[/quote]



Which branch of Buddhism? There's at least one that the buddha himself would say was just flat wrong.



[quote name='Aitrus' post='313755' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:58 PM']There's more evidence that Ghandi lived than Jesus.[/quote]



There had damned well better be or the British keep really really shitty records...



[quote name='Aitrus' post='313755' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:58 PM']If one says that their belifs are more correct than another's, do they truly follow those beliefs and are a fine example of them?[/quote]



I'd make the argument that if you were sure, absolutely sure that you knew the one, true, and right way to keep from burning eternally you'd be duty-bound to go out and profess it. You're the only hope the rest of the world has to avoid torment.
Men are, that they might have joy.
#64
Aitrus - I'm with you. I have my beliefs. Everyone has their own which may be similar to mine or the complete opposite. I don't think ANYONE has the right to tell you that your beliefs are right or wrong, or that your religion is not 'TRUTH'ful. Fact is, we might all be right, or we might all be wrong. My faith and beliefs are what I go by.



As for catholocism - Catholics don't 'worship' the saints or Mary...they revere them. They lived their lives close to God, according to God's rules. The claim that they 'worship' the saints comes from some jerk preachers trying to spread lies about the religion so that their congregation doesn't slip out of their grasp.



OH...Skinny - Catholics don't think they can do anything they please and get away with it because of confession. That's yet another lie told by people who want to make Catholics look bad. In opposition to many posts here, Catholicism does not teach that all you need to do is be 'saved' and you can pretty much do anything you want. Catholicism recognizes that God hates when we sin and teaches that we should strive to be good, and if we happen to stray, he realizes our imperfection as humans and will forgive us as long as we recognize the sin and ask for forgiveness.



What I'm hearing from some folks, it doesn't matter if you sin as long as you are 'saved'. I don't buy that.



In the end, people will do whatever they can to make an opposing religion sound bad, because it is simply easier to do than to try to understand the other religion, or maybe they're scared that if they do it would weaken their 'faith'.



I once heard a Baptist preacher say that his congregation should not try to understand any other religion...what was the use...those religions were 'wrong'. In the end, he finished talking about how the numbers of his congregation were dropping...people were leaving and going to other churches. Sounds like he was more scared about it diminishing further to me.
#65
[quote name='thatmckenzie' post='313764' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:13 PM']I'd make the argument that if you were sure, absolutely sure that you knew the one, true, and right way to keep from burning eternally you'd be duty-bound to go out and profess it. You're the only hope the rest of the world has to avoid torment.[/quote]



I guess I find it hard to believe that somebody can be absolutely sure when there's so much historical doubt as to the accuracy of the texts, especially when there are so many conflicting texts out there. What makes this one better than that one? Why would you want to believe something that we know for sure isn't preserved in the original form?



It would be like following a flawed Ammendment 2 that read: "The right of people to keep and bear their body parts shall not be infringed." because somebody translated it into Hebrew wrong. One little slip can completely change meanings, and we don't have the originals to verify against. IIRC, the oldest biblical texts date from 900 AD. That's a lot of time for change to take place.



I know somebody will come out and say "it's all about faith", but that arguement applies as well. I know Muslims that have just as much faith as Christians.
It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.
- Epictetus

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
- Red Green
#66
[quote name='RVM45' post='313761' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:03 PM']Church of God in Christ (C.O.G.I.C.)[/quote]



It's nice to know that people still wash feet. I miss the old traditions.



The Wesleyan comment is what threw me. The Church of the Nazarene is the Holiness offshoot of the Wesleyans.



Nazarenes don't generally believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate item to salvation. They do, however, believe in sanctification--if you had it in the first place you'll be living it. They can be strict about alcohol, nicotine, and even caffeine as things that cloud the mind and obscure the work.
Men are, that they might have joy.
#67
Aitrus, that's probably one of the most honest queries I've yet heard.







Truth really is truth. Independent of opinion, perspective, dogma, culture, or education. The problem is finding that truth and recognizing it when you've found it!



I was born into a Christian family and raised accordingly. My Dad was an apostolic pastor, but we attended lutheran, evangelical, baptist, apostolic, and a bunch of other churches. I got so confused and my Dad got so mad at "Churchianity" being practiced instead of Christianity that we left his pastorship and went to work in a pulp mill.



As a young man, I was headstrong (still am) and strayed because I wanted what I wanted, rather than "God" telling me what to do.



I screwed my life up royally and found myself totally lost, and at wit's end. In that proverbial gutter I called out to God asking Him to make Himself real and known to me IF He was real at all!



He did!







Here is my encouragement to you:



1. The situation is not hopeless. You are exactly in the right position to dump all excess cultural, educative, opinionated, perspective, dogmatic BAGGAGE and go looking for the truth.

2. If God really is the God He claims to be, then He must be findable!

3. Don't expect mankind to teach you the truth. No human has that wisdom. You need the truth from the truthmaker.

4. Forget that myriad & confusing "smorgasboard" of "religions" out there. They're 99.99999% manmade.

5. Take a look around you. A simple 2 minutes study of your world will show you that there is a God. By all means (if you want to or feel the need to) study the evolution/creation debate, but that's a lost cause even to the evolutionist experts I read. They've moved on to "alien seeding" to explain us now...



If there is a God, and if He's as good and great as He claims to be, then you are able to find Him...but no screwing around here. Be honest. You can lie to yourself, to me, to the world, but you can't lie to the God who made you! He sees right into your heart and knows what motivates you.



Call out to Him and ask Him to make Himself real to you.

Call out to Him and let Him know your frustrations, disappointments, hopes and fears.

Call out to Him and ask Him to talk to you in a way that you'll KNOW it's Him.

Call out to Him and ask Him for the truth.



I guarantee on my life that He is able, willing and waiting to answer your questions!



I will remember you in prayer, my good brother, and will support you with everything I can for your successful journey.



Kurt.
Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

-Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School



Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not on unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

- Proverbs 3:5-6



Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. Let all that you do be done with love.

-1 Corinthians 16:13-14



I will henceforth remember June 21st as Ron Hood The Woodsmaster Day.

An outstanding leader, mentor and friend, Ron was an example to us all. Rest in the arms of Jesus, Brother Ron, until we meet again.



http://dadsoutdooradventures.blogspot.com/
#68
[quote name='DanCaspian' post='313766' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:19 PM']I don't think ANYONE has the right to tell you that your beliefs are right or wrong[/quote]



Well, there goes freedom of speech...



Surely people can say whatever they want, right? Your freedom is to not listen.



[quote name='DanCaspian' post='313766' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:19 PM']As for catholocism - Catholics don't 'worship' the saints or Mary...they revere them.[/quote]



Even the ones that never existed, like Christopher...



By my lights intercessory prayer is tantamount to idolatry. But I believe we can talk to daddy whenever we so choose--it's our right.



[quote name='DanCaspian' post='313766' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:19 PM']I once heard a Baptist preacher say that his congregation should not try to understand any other religion...what was the use...those religions were 'wrong'.[/quote]



I heard one say that he just bought a new Ford truck and everyone who drove a Chevy was going to hell. The pastor of Clays Mill Road Baptist church in Lexington, KY. And I heard a man on TBN say that he'd been praying for years that God should take his wife and he was finally going to do it so that he could get her inheritance.



There's a bunch of bad out there. ::yawn::
Men are, that they might have joy.
#69
I attended a Nazarene Church as a boy.



There is more evidence that Jesus was a historical person than there is to prove Julius Ceaser was real--yet no one doubts Ceaser's reality.



Now, you can't rightly say that God hates Homosexuality "Worse Than Anything."



Homosexuality is wrong. Guess what? If you have ever lied--then in God's eyes, you [color="#ff0000"]ARE[/color] a homosexual!!! You are also a thief; murderer; fornicator; home-wrecker; idolater--what have you.



He who violates the law in [color="#ff0000"]any one point[/color]; becomes guilty of violating the whole law in [color="#ff0000"]every single point...[/color]



It isn't for man to judge if a man managed to get saved or not. Nonetheless, a Preacher wll be called upon to preach a many a funeral over folks who are in all probabilty; just trying out their backstroke in the fiery lake.



This isn't a fruitful time to point this out. One has to have a wee bit of tact.



Brother Jed, one of the leading advoctes of "Confrontational Christianity", and a man I greatly admire--has said that he can't recall a single person converting because he (Bro J) convincingly demolished all their arguments. What does happen; is that from being constantly confronted with the truth; somehow a change of heart takes place--usuallly quite abruptly.



[url="http://www.brojed.org/contents.html"]http://www.brojed.org/contents.html[/url]



.....RVM45 <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />
There are only Two Types of People in the World:



A.} People who are After My Guns;



and;



B.} People who are Not After My Guns.



Though I am forced to live in exile, in the Twenty-First century; I am still proud to be a Citizen of the Twentieth Century.



RVM45
#70
[quote name='Dad' post='313774' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:29 PM']Truth really is truth. Independent of opinion, perspective, dogma, culture, or education. The problem is finding that truth and recognizing it when you've found it!

Kurt.[/quote]



Kurt - Thanks for your response. I wasn't meaning for Robbo's thread to turn into what it did, but oh well. Sorry for hijacking your thread. After this, I'll let it get back to whatever it was that started it.



I have done some asking and searching, and nothing written seems to fit what I feel in my heart. However, what I feel in my heart makes sense of the way the world works, and doesn't give me shivers thinking I might inadvertently do something wrong to earn eternal damnation.



Here's the slimmed down version: I don't know for sure who's religious dogmas are right or who's are wrong, and neither does anybody else. I believe that there's something bigger than myself up there, that he/she/it/they has a sense of humor and irony and has a more profound understanding of us than we do of ourselves. Although I don't know all his specific rules (because of human interference or what have you), I do have a sense of what is right and wrong in my heart, that our beliefs agree more or less along the same lines. Although it's not written down in a holy book someplace, I think we have an understanding, and it feels right.



I think I'll let this drop here. If you want to talk more in PM, I'd be fine with that.
It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.
- Epictetus

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
- Red Green
#71
Back to the initial topic:



Most people who survive the Great Tribulation do NOT go to heaven. There is a predetermind # who are a part of the "Rapure" & can be found at Revelation 14:1.



The others who are NOT a part of that number have this hope.

Psalms 37:11

Psalms 37:29

Matt 5:5
We have the right to our opinion but not to the facts.
#72
"What happens if you accidentally flip through channels on satelite and your remote gets stuck on a porno for just a second, right smack in the middle of one of them real explicit scenes and you see it. Is that a sin? If so, then do you have to be saved all over again?"



What you describe is an accident and is forgiven- it was unintentional.



"If your buddy shows you a gun and you think: Ooooh I really like that, I want one. Is that a sin? It is a form of coveting, I've been told..."



It is not a sin to admire your buddy's gun and say I would like to have one like it. Now if you admire your buddy's gun and desire to take his as opposed to buying it or trading for it- that would be a sin. It is natural to want things other people have- how you handle that desire is where the rubber meets the road.



"I you see a pretty woman and you accidentally imagine her nude...that's a sin, right?"



If you see a pretty woman and you think she is pretty you are safe. If your imagination takes you beyond that- that's sinful.



"So, if you're saved and you do it...are considered Hitler and all them? Or do you get a free pass?"



Being "Saved" is a misnomer in my book and the idea of being "saved" is not one that I see as easily provable from scripture as the church teaches it- there is salvation- but I disagree with the church's doctrine of being "saved'. We are each born with a measure of faith and pride. We are also born with a measure of mercy from God. We do not know what the limit of that mercy is, which is why we should not wear out our second chances. A good illustration of my point is the comparison between King Saul and King David... King Saul was given a heart for God, but during his rule he made one mistake and sinned against God. The scripture tells us that at that point God cut off King Saul- he was no longer "saved" if you prefer that term. King David on the other hand committed many sins- some greater sins than some of us would commit- murder and adultery is among them. Yet he was considered righteous and "saved". So whats the deal? God sees our hearts- He discerns us in the ways that no man can. It also shows that being a good person doesn't get you "saved"... The road to hell is paved with good intentions...



Paul says it best here concerning salvation-



Philippians 2:12 12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.



He is telling us our salvation is a daily issue that is to be worked out everyday. The fear and trembling is about recognizing the Almighty God we serve- and give Him the ultimate respect- we are not worthy of the very spark of life He has given us... Which leads into your next question...




"EXPLAIN CATHOLOCISM TO ME. Sin all week long, ask forgiveness on Saturday/Sunday and you're fine. Isn't that kinda like slapping God in the face? (No offense Catholics, I'm just wondering here)"



My grandparents are Catholics and I can say not all of Catholicism is what you are describing--- but I have seen what you are talking about. Really this is prevalent across all the religions- the majority of the religious people are not really that serious. That said this is not a relgious thing- its a people thing. The majority of Americans today are not serious about keeping this country free and great- hence we have what we have today.




"IF a husband talks dirty to his wife during sex...is that a sin?"



Just going on things I have heard people say- I would not talk to my wife dirty... and I would say it to be sinful. A husband is the head of his household, and his wife and children will watch him to see what he does- on a personal level- I do not think it becoming for a godly man to speak the sort of things I have heard to his wife. What's wrong with just telling one's wife she is beautiful, or sexy, or wonderful, etc. What's wrong with poetic speech? If people like dirty talk- then that's between them- but I think that does not speak well of the one who listens and enjoys that talk- let alone the one speaking in such a way.



Anyways- my last thought on this- Colossians 4:6 6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.




"If a husband fantasizes about his wife being naked...is that a sin?"



If the fantasy is for him, and it does not drive him to other sin or distraction- then keeping his passion for his wife is a good thing."




"Are cusswords a sin? (with the exception of the GD word...I know that one is)"



Absolutely... curse words and cussing degrades the image of God that we have. It does not raise anyone up- it does no good.



Luke 6:44-45 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.




"How can sex be strictly procreative when it is proven to be chemically tied into our system as a pleasure act? "



God gave sex for procreation- no doubt about it. He also gave desires to make sure the procreation happens. It is not sinful to enjoy sex or to desire it with your spouse- this is natural and God given. What alot of doctrine goes on about is the "go forth be fruitful and multiply". One of the first commandments given to mankind. But unlike other commandments that are forever- the go forth and be fruitful and multiply has a cut off point... that is the rest of the commandment ends with "...and fill the earth". The earth is more than full. Add to this that having children for the sake of having children when you cannot give them a good quality of living is not good--- we can see the results of having children with parents who are not ready, responsible or severely impoverished.



"A lot of Christians are all torn up about streets of gold and such...why would God pave Heaven with an earthly ore? Isn't lusting after Earthly things a sin?"



The streets of gold is a way of describing what was being seen in the visions. That aside, there is nothing wrong with desiring material possessions. There were men of God before us who were extremely wealthy. But the question is- does the pursuit of material possessions tak you away from God? Does that fancy BMW become an idol... Get the idea?



"If I get saved, but my idea of Heaven is the mountains of E. KY where I can camp all the time and fish and such...is that a sin? Or will that be the place I go when I die?"



I am going to get flamed for this... but there is no one in heaven now... those who die are simply resting. I know some are thinging what about lazurus- that is a parable- Yeshua was not implying people who die go to heaven. The scripture speaks clearly on the subject... if you look hard enough... no man knows what heaven will be like. No man is capable of imagining- it will be greater than any mountains you can imagine. I don't see anything though that says its sinful to desire mountains as a place to go when you die.



Psalm 115:17 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.



Daniel 12:2 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.




"Like I say, really and honestly, no offense meant...but these are questions I've had for a long time."



You have to start somewhere and they are good questions to start with <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />
#73
Any one here believe that the earth is only several thousand years old?

Or that evolution is incorrect?



We are SUCH children. We have a loooooooooonnnnnnnnng way to go before we will have a grasp on things.



go out on a moonless, cloudless night, lay down and look up at the stars, and try to understand creation.



Interestingly, if more than about 10% of our neurons fire at the same time you will lose conciousness. So, I get dizzy before I get too far allong in my attempts at understanding.



'God' created all of that, right? as far as I'm concerned, God is incomprehensible. Like one of the atoms in my body, trying to understand me.



We seem to have a capacity for 'good' and 'evil' that other critters don't have. (thanks Eve!) There is some question how much of that is nature or nurture.

Is that part of the 'Plan?' What Eve did tainted the rest of us with original sin, but if she hadn't, then all of what comes later is, at the least, moot.



In the last few centuries, our abiltiy to look 'out' and 'in' has rapidly developed, but we have a long way to go in our quest for 'understanding'



I truely don't believe that anyone has it 'right' at this point in time.





Respectfully,



A semi-educated ape who is afraid of the unkown.



(and that fear of the unknown, is what is the driving force of religion.)
"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but rather the one most adaptable to change."

Charles Darwin



http://www.selfdefenseinitiative.com
#74
[quote name='zengunfighter' post='313888' date='Dec 30 2008, 07:07 PM']Any one here believe that the earth is only several thousand years old?

Or that evolution is incorrect?



We are SUCH children. We have a loooooooooonnnnnnnnng way to go before we will have a grasp on things.



go out on a moonless, cloudless night, lay down and look up at the stars, and try to understand creation.



Interestingly, if more than about 10% of our neurons fire at the same time you will lose conciousness. So, I get dizzy before I get too far allong in my attempts at understanding.



'God' created all of that, right? as far as I'm concerned, God is incomprehensible. Like one of the atoms in my body, trying to understand me.



We seem to have a capacity for 'good' and 'evil' that other critters don't have. (thanks Eve!) There is some question how much of that is nature or nurture.

Is that part of the 'Plan?' What Eve did tainted the rest of us with original sin, but if she hadn't, then all of what comes later is, at the least, moot.



In the last few centuries, our abiltiy to look 'out' and 'in' has rapidly developed, but we have a long way to go in our quest for 'understanding'



I truely don't believe that anyone has it 'right' at this point in time.





Respectfully,



A semi-educated ape who is afraid of the unkown.



(and that fear of the unknown, is what is the driving force of religion.)[/quote]



How true that we are so infantile in our understanding of God and creation... this must have been exactly what Abram was thinking as he looked up in the sky before the Lord spoke to him.



I believe the earth is probably millions or more years old. The earth was there when creation began... Genesis is a book about a beginning that is one out of many other beginnings we know nothing about. What happened to the earth to cause it to be without form and void- in a state of chaos. After creation, we don't know how much time passed before Adam and Eve sinned- but once there was sin... time started to tick with the introduction of death.



There maybe room for evolution in all this, but certainly not as we teach it today. If you believe in creation as the bible describes it, creation provided a clue about the chicken or the egg question. I say the chicken came first when you read that Adam and Eve were created perfect, mature form as were the animals and the birds and the fish. I think what people want to call evolution really is the ongoing progressions of creation. Creation did not cease on the 6th day. It has continued with the birth of life, the ever expanding universe, etc. Creation is still happening today... we are finding new species of animals, insects, etc... perhaps that is what people want to call evolution that is nothing more than ongoing creation.



There is something interesting about your comment with Eve and original sin.



Genesis 2:15 15 ¶ And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.



The word keep was transalated from the Hebrew word "shamar"(transliterated Hebrew here)... this is where you start to look deeper and make connections that fit the pattern of the bible as a whole...



"Keep" doesn't really say anything important to us... but "Shamar" means in the Hebrew to guard, to keep watch, watchman , etc... the same word was told to Moses about the Torah and the Ten Commandments... to guard them...



People want to blame Eve- in truth this was Adam's fault first being the head of his household. If they were being watchful and guarding the garden, the serpent would have never been there to tempt Eve.



What was it that God said to Cain before he murdered Able...



Genesis 4:7 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.



I wonder how long the serpent crouched at the entrance to the garden before Adam let his guard down and let temptation in the form of a serpent enter the garden. Also notice when Adam and Eve were kicked out, two Angels were posted at the one singular entrance to the garden. You can read this on so many different levels. But the short of it for this discussion is there was only one way in... just like Heaven... Ephesians 4:5 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
#75
[quote name='DanCaspian' post='313655' date='Dec 30 2008, 08:34 AM']Also, there are people in the deep dark forests of South America who have never heard of Jesus Christ who will be going to heaven. God will judge us on our actions and our hearts. At least that's MY belief.[/quote]



that's apples and oranges though, near as i can tell (and i am no authority);





the Bible indicates those people will be judged by what they know, not what they do not know, which is just.



as soon as they encounter Jesus though, according to Paul, they and their eternal souls, are in jeopardy!





it's rough.



rough, but just.



there's gonna be a lot of heathen savages in Hell and Heaven, near as i can tell.



lots of aborted fetuses in Heaven too - and i reckon they will be unflaggingly ready to do good things to bad people. <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':mellow:' />





pretty hard to remain ignorant of Christ in Western Civilization....



good luck.



vec


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