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Stupid Question Time.
#76
I'd make the argument that if you were sure, absolutely sure that you knew the one, true, and right way to keep from burning eternally you'd be duty-bound to go out and profess it. You're the only hope the rest of the world has to avoid torment.

[/quote]



[color="#FF0000"][/color]This is the great commission and an absolute!!



I guess I find it hard to believe that somebody can be absolutely sure when there's so much historical doubt as to the accuracy of the texts, especially when there are so many conflicting texts out there. What makes this one better than that one? Why would you want to believe something that we know for sure isn't preserved in the original form?



[color="#FF0000"][/color]The entire premise and joy of being a Christian is the fact that when yo are born again, (There's that phrase again and it IS scriptural) you have the Holy Spirit of God living within you and guiding you and illuminating the scriptures for you. I have yet to have anyone point out an actual contextual inacurracy anywhere in the Bible.

[color="#000000"][/color]

It would be like following a flawed Ammendment 2 that read: "The right of people to keep and bear their body parts shall not be infringed." because somebody translated it into Hebrew wrong. One little slip can completely change meanings, and we don't have the originals to verify against. IIRC, the oldest biblical texts date from 900 AD. That's a lot of time for change to take place.



I know somebody will come out and say "it's all about faith", but that arguement applies as well. I know Muslims that have just as much faith as Christians.

[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"][/color]It IS all about faith but the key is the OBJECT of that faith. Our God lives and makes himself known to them that obey his commandments.

[color="#000000"][/color]

[quote name='thatmckenzie' post='313771' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:23 PM'][quote name='RVM45' post='313761' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:03 PM']Church of God in Christ (C.O.G.I.C.)[/quote]



It's nice to know that people still wash feet. I miss the old traditions.



The Wesleyan comment is what threw me. The Church of the Nazarene is the Holiness offshoot of the Wesleyans.



Nazarenes don't generally believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate item to salvation. They do, however, believe in sanctification--if you had it in the first place you'll be living it. They can be strict about alcohol, nicotine, and even caffeine as things that cloud the mind and obscure the work.

[/quote]



[color="#FF0000"][/color]I am a Nazarene and while I do not drink or smoke (Used to do a lot of both!!!) I drink coffee by the gallon. I abstain from drink because it is a bad witness to the lost, not because I believe there is anything inherantly wrong in taking a drink. See Paul's injunction to Timothy. Nazarenes do believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a seperate item to salvation and view it as the first step, after salvation , toward what is known as "Entire Sanctification" or the moving beyond the NEED to sin. The Nazarenes also believe that you cannot "lose" your salvation, but you can willfully lay it down and walk away from it.



[quote name='zengunfighter' post='313888' date='Dec 30 2008, 08:07 PM']Any one here believe that the earth is only several thousand years old?

Or that evolution is incorrect?



[color="#FF0000"][/color]Absolutely!!! And that is a discussion that could go on for a LOOOOOOOONG time.



We are SUCH children. We have a loooooooooonnnnnnnnng way to go before we will have a grasp on things.



go out on a moonless, cloudless night, lay down and look up at the stars, and try to understand creation.



Interestingly, if more than about 10% of our neurons fire at the same time you will lose conciousness. So, I get dizzy before I get too far allong in my attempts at understanding.



'God' created all of that, right? as far as I'm concerned, God is incomprehensible. Like one of the atoms in my body, trying to understand me.



We seem to have a capacity for 'good' and 'evil' that other critters don't have. (thanks Eve!) There is some question how much of that is nature or nurture.

Is that part of the 'Plan?' What Eve did tainted the rest of us with original sin, but if she hadn't, then all of what comes later is, at the least, moot.



In the last few centuries, our abiltiy to look 'out' and 'in' has rapidly developed, but we have a long way to go in our quest for 'understanding'



I truely don't believe that anyone has it 'right' at this point in time.





Respectfully,



A semi-educated ape who is afraid of the unkown.



(and that fear of the unknown, is what is the driving force of religion.)[/quote]
Grey Wolf



Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me.
#77
My edit-fu is all messed up!

I can't seem to get the text coloring to work like I want.

Too tired and clumsy!



GW



PS DAD, you and I think a lot alike. I agree with most eveything you said.
Grey Wolf



Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me.
#78
If I were the devil and I wanted to prevent people from acknowledging the existence and supremacy of God and the path to salvation, what would I do?



1. I'd call into question the existence of God.

2. I'd warp, twist and pervert everything God said and did.

3. I'd create so many alternate "realities", "truths" and "religions" that folks would get too confused to even bother trying to find the truth.

4. I'd bury people with so much business in their lives that they'd have no spare time to pursue really important (eternal) things.

5. I'd bury people in falsehoods.

6. I'd appeal to people's egos.

7. I would make every effort to subvert and overthrow the champions of God.



A few examples:





God made everything in six literal days. Satan brought us the theory of evolution to undermine people's faith in God's truth.



God made us for His pleasure and glory. Satan appealed to Eve's and Adam's egos to say "You shall be as gods..."



God made us in His image. Satan has been trying to convince us that we're nothing but evolved priomordial soup.



God says there are morals. Satan tries to convince us that morality is nothing more than subjective, personal opinion.



God's word is the truth. Satan buries us in false religions, disputes over scriptural "authenticity", and our cultural dependence upon "proof" before we believe anything.



Science and history supports God's word as the truth. Satan gives us a cultural religion of dependency on false or misunderstood "science" to dispute God's truth.







I'm illustrating a 6,000 year old war that we're largely unaware of.







I will be direct and clear. Evolution is a myth that is believed only because we choose to believe it...and we choose to believe it because the only other option requires us to change and be accountable...and THAT is unacceptable to our ego.



Let's be honest about it.







The personal implications of the two basic worldviews are deep, diametrically opposed and eternal.



If you believe in Evolution:



1. you believe that everything came from nothing about 20 billion years ago in a cosmic "burp". A RELIGIOUS STATEMENT. NO EVIDENCE.

2. you believe in stellar evolution, the evolution of the universe, stars, galaxies, etc. NO EVIDENCE.

3. you believe in chemical evolution. the evolution of complex chemicals from hydrogen & helium. NO EVIDENCE.

4. you believe in planetary evolution. the evolution of planets from dispersed gasses & materials. NO EVIDENCE.

5. you believe in biological evolution. the origin of life from nonliving matter. NO EVIDENCE.

6. you believe in macro evolution. the widely varied kinds of lifeforms from a single celled organism. NO EVIDENCE.

7. you believe in micro evolution....another word for variation. THAT happens in spades! But to believe anything else isn't scientific, it's religious.

8. you believe there is no god.

9. you believe there is no point or purpose to your existence.

10. you believe your personality doesn't exist, because evolution can't explain self awareness, knowledge, love, wisdom or emotion.



Basically, you believe you are a cosmic accident that is worthless, pointless, purposeless, and that there are no laws.



If you believe in God's word:



...you believe the EXACT OPPOSITE of the end result of believing in evolution.



Now, science has only ever shown a wide variety of species that show common design. That is variation. The Bible speaks of animals producing after their KIND. A horse creates a horse, NOT a gerbil. There can be saltwater crocodiles and freshwater crocodiles, but they both came from a crocodile. NOT A ROCK.





Any other evolutionary belief is religious...but it's lablelled as "science".







Do you really believe that the "science" of evolution could produce an account of our existence that is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of God's account purely by chance?



...or by design?







Ask yourself why.





Search things out for yourself.





Maybe it's God's word is the truth and you're being lied to...all your life...just to destroy you because God values you.



... and you blithely believe that your destructive manipulation is your emancipation!



...can you think of anything more horrible than that?





We shall all give an account for ourselves before God. Ron and Karen have given us all the opportunity to develop knowledge & skills to prolong our lives...but we're all going to die someday.







THEN what will you do?







With greatest love and respect for my brethren saved and unsaved, I speak this to challenge worldviews and to provoke personal search for what really is the truth.



Much love,



Kurt.
Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

-Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School



Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not on unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

- Proverbs 3:5-6



Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. Let all that you do be done with love.

-1 Corinthians 16:13-14



I will henceforth remember June 21st as Ron Hood The Woodsmaster Day.

An outstanding leader, mentor and friend, Ron was an example to us all. Rest in the arms of Jesus, Brother Ron, until we meet again.



http://dadsoutdooradventures.blogspot.com/
#79
My truck with Darwin's Disciples is that the good Lord had to make it all in some way.



That said, I'd still like an answer as to why we'd never bred a new species of dog in umpteen thousand years...



edit: that's a callback to my comments in the gene engineering thread
Men are, that they might have joy.
#80
[quote name='thatmckenzie' post='313983' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:06 PM']My truck with Darwin's Disciples is that the good Lord had to make it all in some way.



That said, I'd still like an answer as to why we'd never bred a new species of dog in umpteen thousand years...[/quote]



There are LOTS of species of dogs, and roses, and potatos!



But that's fine! No problem. The Bible speaks of KIND.



Kurt.
Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

-Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School



Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not on unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

- Proverbs 3:5-6



Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. Let all that you do be done with love.

-1 Corinthians 16:13-14



I will henceforth remember June 21st as Ron Hood The Woodsmaster Day.

An outstanding leader, mentor and friend, Ron was an example to us all. Rest in the arms of Jesus, Brother Ron, until we meet again.



http://dadsoutdooradventures.blogspot.com/
#81
[quote name='Dad' post='313984' date='Dec 30 2008, 08:08 PM'][quote name='thatmckenzie' post='313983' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:06 PM']My truck with Darwin's Disciples is that the good Lord had to make it all in some way.



That said, I'd still like an answer as to why we'd never bred a new species of dog in umpteen thousand years...[/quote]



There are LOTS of species of dogs, and roses, and potatos!



But that's fine! No problem. The Bible speaks of KIND.



Kurt.

[/quote]



those are not species, those are breeds.



there's a difference.





you can't cross species naturally.



you can cross-breed, hence the name that represents the act; crossbreed.



vec
#82
[quote name='zengunfighter' post='313888' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:07 PM']Any one here believe that the earth is only several thousand years old?

Or that evolution is incorrect?[/quote]





I don't know about the age of the Earth, but I don't believe in evolution.



I understand natural selection far better than most people simply accept it because their teachers tell them it is true. Many of them don't even understand how it works. I was the top in my class in high school biology, and should have been in 8th Grade, and only one student got a higher "A" on a test than I did one time.



I used to believe in evolution. I even occasionally corrected my mom when she was reading Bible stories when I was in kindergarten, telling her that that is not what happened. I just don't believe in it anymore.
"Why should I trade one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants one mile away. An elected legislature can trample a man's rights as easily as the king can." Benjamin Martin, The Patriot
#83
[quote name='Skynny Lynyrd' post='313657' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:44 AM']See?[/quote]





If that was in reference to you previous pos regarding translations, differing opinions does not prove your point.



None of these differing opinions prove anything about the translations which are far more alike than people who emphasize their differences would like you to believe.



Some people won't want to hear this, but a Baptist could preach out of a Catholic Bible and a Catholic can preach out of the King James Bible and the only people who'd know the difference are those who memorized the passages.
"Why should I trade one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants one mile away. An elected legislature can trample a man's rights as easily as the king can." Benjamin Martin, The Patriot
#84
I just eaw a commercial on TV, where a bird turned around and had a face on its ass feathers. Tell me that was evolution! I say god put that face on the bird's ass!











How do animals know to evolve? Why do some animals seem to evolve and others simply die out? Evilution? <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='<_<' />
Message of Insight and Unity 

We go into the wilderness to fulfill our hearts and empty our minds of life's garbage.
The gear we leave behind and the challenges we encounter, 
Are methods we use to cleanse our spirits.
Of Survivalists and Bushcrafters, Primitive Technologists too, we are one.........

It is the wilderness within, we strive for first and always.
Not everyone can have a cabin in the mountains.
The thread that connects us, is fine like silk and strong as steel.
Together, the song of the wilderness is the song we sing!

"And can I say something else?"
Bushcrafting is "doing what you want to do." 
Survival is "doing what you have to do"
Primitive Technology is about all of the above........

By TNRR aka "Survival Sully"
#85
[quote name='Benjamin Liu' post='314067' date='Dec 31 2008, 06:07 AM'][quote name='Skynny Lynyrd' post='313657' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:44 AM']See?[/quote]





If that was in reference to you previous pos regarding translations, differing opinions does not prove your point.



None of these differing opinions prove anything about the translations which are far more alike than people who emphasize their differences would like you to believe.



Some people won't want to hear this, but a Baptist could preach out of a Catholic Bible and a Catholic can preach out of the King James Bible and the only people who'd know the difference are those who memorized the passages.

[/quote]





Just giving you guys a hard time. <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Wink' />



No hard feelings I hope.
Ron Hood 6/21/11. God needed another good one for his outfit.



Plan ahead. Bring a machete.



"Then I remembered: America is afraid of cap guns, which no longer exist. Of bottle rockets and pocketknives and Islamo-Mahmuds curled beneath the bed. And America is afraid of children. Puzzled boys of eleven are led from school in handcuffs for possession of a water pistol. A cop who would do it ought to go into hiding from embarrassment, but nothing embarrases anyone any longer. Ye gods and little catfish, I thought. Bob’s right. The country is afraid. Of everything." -- Fred Reed. Free Fall: Conversations with Bob. 2010. http://www.fredoneverything.net
#86
[quote name='Skynny Lynyrd' post='314093' date='Dec 31 2008, 06:38 AM']Just giving you guys a hard time. <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Wink' />



No hard feelings I hope.[/quote]



No, I rarely get mad about any internet discussions on issues. When I do it is usually private email with people I know in real life, and even that is rare.
"Why should I trade one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants one mile away. An elected legislature can trample a man's rights as easily as the king can." Benjamin Martin, The Patriot
#87
Quote:If you believe in Evolution:



1. you believe that everything came from nothing about 20 billion years ago in a cosmic "burp". A RELIGIOUS STATEMENT. NO EVIDENCE.

2. you believe in stellar evolution, the evolution of the universe, stars, galaxies, etc. NO EVIDENCE.

3. you believe in chemical evolution. the evolution of complex chemicals from hydrogen & helium. NO EVIDENCE.

4. you believe in planetary evolution. the evolution of planets from dispersed gasses & materials. NO EVIDENCE.

5. you believe in biological evolution. the origin of life from nonliving matter. NO EVIDENCE.

6. you believe in macro evolution. the widely varied kinds of lifeforms from a single celled organism. NO EVIDENCE.

7. you believe in micro evolution....another word for variation. THAT happens in spades! But to believe anything else isn't scientific, it's religious.

8. you believe there is no god.

9. you believe there is no point or purpose to your existence.

10. you believe your personality doesn't exist, because evolution can't explain self awareness, knowledge, love, wisdom or emotion.





#'s 8 and 9 are especially bullshit. Where is it written in stone who believes what? Is it just because you say?





IIRC there is no place where it is stated how (as in the process) God created the worlds....There has not yet been a Christian that can prove the manner in which the Almighty created all.



Evolution is a theory, not fact 'tis true. But that also does not mean it did/does not occur. That is belief.



God in his nature is beyond our capacity to understand, we're the equivalent of rabbits discussing quantum physics when we attempt to define him and his methods.



A measure of humility goes a long way.
Hope is for the lazy....



"Doing better next time. That's what life is." - The Bloody Nine
#88
Not sure it was mentioned before but some of the shows on discovery,history channel,and national geographic arent very truthfull on Christianity.
#89
Guys, this is my own take on the whole controversy--and while I feel that my position is logically unassailable; I've yet to see anyone but me take it.



Fundamentalists and Scientists {Note the big "S"? Means people who take Science as a sort of religion...} argue endlessly whether Evolution {Or the Big Bang; or Freudian Psychology; or String Theory or whatever...} is GOOD Science, or not.



Now we all agree that individual scientists can be outright liars; they can be too biassed to properly weigh the data; or they can be honestly mistaken. No one argues that.



Also, there are times when perfectly GOOD Science heads down a wrong pathway for a few years--or generations; 'till plenty more sciencing puts it back on the right track.



Once again, few would dispute this.



But let us ask ourselves: does good science conscientiously applied by many, many scientists--all as brutally honest; and as unbiased as it is possible for mortal men to be (Or by infallible; unemotional surrogates--should we figure out how to produce them...) applied for a long enough period of time to rule out any temporary wrong turnings...



Does that kind of [color="#ff0000"]SCIENCE[/color][color="#000000"] inevitably and infallibly lead to [/color][color="#ff0000"]TRUTH--[/color][color="#9932cc"]IN ALL CASES???



[/color][color="#000000"]You can believe that Science invarriably leads to truth if you want to. Science itself makes no such claim. Philosophy offers no ground to prove this theorem. (Though some [size=5]S
cientists--ignorant of both the Philosophical underpinnings of Science; and Philosophy in general--may hasten to assert that it does.)



Truth be told, the run of the mill Fundamentaist [color="#ff0000"]AND[/color] [color="#000000"]the run of the mill Evolutionist, both believe this very dubious premise without reservation. Therefore they fight like two starveling alley curs; to see which one can snatch the bone/title of Good Science from the other's jaws.



But if we can cut loose from our ill-founded faith in the Omniscience of Science--what difference does it make if Evolution is good Science or not? It could concievably be wonderful; excellent; air-tight Science--and still not be truth.



I used to think some of my fellow Fundamentalists made themselves look bad;arguing with the Scientists about what was; or was not Good Science. Guys--that's [color="#ff0000"]THEIR [/color]thing. They're good at it. Y'all done been amatures.Let the simpletons play with their toys--lest an onlooker be confused as to who is half; and who is wit...



But lately, some of the theoretical work that's been done on the concept of Intellegent Design is leading me to believe that [color="#ff0000"]maybe[/color] Evolution isn't Good Science afterall.



We know that it ain't [/color][color="#ff0000"]true--[/color][color="#000000"]but it may not even be an air-tight Scientific Theory--not that it matters...



.....RVM45 <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' /> [/color]
[/color][/size]
There are only Two Types of People in the World:



A.} People who are After My Guns;



and;



B.} People who are Not After My Guns.



Though I am forced to live in exile, in the Twenty-First century; I am still proud to be a Citizen of the Twentieth Century.



RVM45
#90
[quote name='RVM45' post='314142' date='Dec 31 2008, 08:05 AM']Also, there are times when perfectly GOOD Science heads down a wrong pathway for a few years--or generations; 'till plenty more sciencing puts it back on the right track.

.....RVM45 <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' /> [/color][/size][/color][/size][/quote]



The same could be said of religion as well. Remember that guy named Copernicus? He was that whacko mathematician/astronomer who claimed that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe because it rotated around the Sun.



A few years later another guy by the name of Galileo publicly supported the idea and wrote a paper on the subject. The Church, in righteous indignation to such an insulting idea, jailed Galileo, citing heresy and blasphemy. They used the passages 1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5, Ecclesiastes 1:5, and Joshua 10 (the story of the sun standing still) as evidence that the Earth is the center of the universe and doesn't move. The science plainly said differently, and was (and still is, even moreso now) completely proven.



Not all science is bogus or founded on a pure desire to "destroy the truth of God", nor are all "good" or "correct" religious belifs based on accurate readings of whatever given Holy Book you're looking at.
It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.
- Epictetus

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
- Red Green


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