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Stupid Question Time.
[quote name='RVM45' post='313698' date='Dec 30 2008, 02:35 PM'].

So although your hypothetical noble savage maybe a jolly good fellow; as the World views it; God sees him as guilty of every act of Hitler; Stalin; Dahmer; etc.

.....RVM45 <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' /> [/color][/quote]

Well, that's pretty crappy.
"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but rather the one most adaptable to change."

Charles Darwin
[quote name='RVM45' post='313698' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:35 PM']The Bible says that all our human righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight--including the most "Saintly" of the unsaved.[/quote]

I recently heard this preached to mean that human niceness is equivalent to a failed conception. It's a lost chance to have born fruit and achieved something.

It was the first time I'd ever heard a minister rightly calling the euphemistic "filthy rags" for what they are, menstrual padding.

It was interesting.
Men are, that they might have joy.
[quote name='zengunfighter' post='313709' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:54 PM'][quote name='RVM45' post='313698' date='Dec 30 2008, 02:35 PM'].

So although your hypothetical noble savage maybe a jolly good fellow; as the World views it; God sees him as guilty of every act of Hitler; Stalin; Dahmer; etc.[/quote]

Well, that's pretty crappy.


Not if you believe it. If you do it's just a call to get out there and be an even better person to make up for all the crappy ones.
Men are, that they might have joy.
[quote name='WalkandTalk' post='313567' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:38 AM']No, the word "Rapture" is not in the English bibles. It is however in the Latin Bible. It is from that text that we have the carryover into our modern English theology and use of the word. It is like the use of the term "Trinity" - a term not found in the Bible.

The concept of the Rapture is in the Bible. The term "Rapture" is not found in the English translations, however. The various forms of the Greek verb harpazo were translated by English scholars into such phrases as "caught up" (1 Th 4:17; Rev 12:5), "take by force" (Matt 11:12), and "catcheth away" (Matt 13:19).

The Latin Vulgate, however, translates harpazo from the Greek into various forms of the Latin verb and noun rapere and raptus. Thus, the term "Rapture" is in the Latin translation, which is a Bible, just as the English, German or any other translation is.

The word "Rapture" has the same meaning as the Greek word harpazo and the English words "caught up." One of the English meanings of the word "rapture" is a being carried away. (Websters New World Dict.; American Heritage Dict.)

Since the concept of being carried away is Scriptural, and since to be "raptured" means to be carried away, the word "rapture" is Scriptural. The fact that the English translators chose the rendering "caught away" instead of the synonym "raptured" is immaterial.

Furthermore, the Greek word harpazo and the Latin rapere are cognate words (i.e., related in origin). Cassell's Latin Dictionary (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1959, p.457) states that RAP (the stem for rapere and raptus) and ARP (the stem of harpazo) are cognates of a common stem. Therefore, the linguistic root of our English word "Rapture" is even found in the original Greek.

I could give a list of 13 scripture references, if need be, where the Greek form of harpazo is used in the New Testament.


I understand the point you are making... but being caught up in the air and being whisked away to another place while the tribulations occur are two different things... the Bible is clear about a Millennium rule on this earth when the Messiah returns, it is also clear that a group of people called the saints are going to go through tribulations of the likes the earth has never seen. Frankly an issue that occurs when translating from Greek or Latin is you loose the Hebrew mindset that helps make the bible more clear. I continue to be astounded at what an understanding of the Hebrew language, culture and mindset will reveal that you cannot glean from the English scriptures are they are.
Well i am convinced <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />

Thanks guys

If it aint raining, it aint training
[quote name='Robbo' post='313730' date='Dec 30 2008, 02:42 PM']Well i am convinced <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />[/quote]

<img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />
Men are, that they might have joy.
[quote name='Narrowtrail' post='313650' date='Dec 30 2008, 10:17 AM'][quote name='StormSeeker' post='313563' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:09 AM']The perspective we need to hold is that the bible was written by the Jews- really Hebrews- written for the Hebrews and has been preserved in blood by the Hebrews- God's chosen people. There is not a "Gentile" author in the bible anywhere.

John 4:22 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Having been Christian for the early part of my life... I know this is one verse that has never been mentioned in any church I ever attended. In Yeshua's own words- salvation is of the Jews. Israel is the time clock counting down Yeshua's return. Yeshua says himself what will bring His return.[/quote]

StormSeeker, read your post with great interest, but I have a bit of a disagreement about the bible being exclusively written by the Hebrews. Luke, who wrote his own gospel along with the book of Acts, was in fact a gentile, a Greek.


I also disagree with what appears to be your conclusion that salvation is "of the Jews." I think that the New Testament is clear that God was disappointed that many of the Jewish people did not accept the divinity of Jesus Christ. Peter had this pointed out to him in one of the first disagreements on doctrine in the early church as he was instructed by God to reach out and accept the gentiles.

I do agree with your reasoning about the doesn't seem consistent with the Bible. But, I hope God sees fit to save my miserable soul no matter what happens.


I understand why you might think Luke is Greek given how historians and others have written about him. Luke can be considered Greek, in the same way that Paul was a Turk and citizen of Rome. But definitely not Gentile- Luke was very much of Hebrew lineage. His given name is Meir Ben Selah... it is recorded that he studied the Gemorah which means he was highly educated and very much Jewish as the Jewish people tend to keep to themselves and do not invite Gentiles into their activities and studies of the Talmud, Kabbalah, Mishnah etc. You can read from other NT stories it was taboo to associate with the Gentiles which is why it was such a big deal that Paul and Peter started to share the Torah with the Gentiles along with the good news about the Messiah.

Romans 3:1-2 KJV Romans 3:1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Regarding salvation being of the Jews-- this is very much as it read is what it means- the blindness of the Jews to Yeshua is a gift from God for us... had the Jews accepted Yeshua on the spot- there would be no place for the Gentiles to find salvation.

Luke 21:24 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The time of the Gentiles is now given what we have been seing happen in Israel now and the last two thousand years.

Romans 11:2 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Paul plainly states that God has not replaced his people or cast them out.

Romans 11:25 25 ¶ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, [color="#FF0000"]until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in[/color].

It is true that God is not happy with the chosen people called the Jews- but this blindness and non-acceptance of Yeshua is God's doing- not all the fault can be laid at the feet of the Jews.

Given those verses- this makes goes with what Yeshua says:

Luke 13:34-35 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The day is coming when the Jews will accept Yeshua.

I hope that helps
[quote name='RVM45' post='313652' date='Dec 30 2008, 10:23 AM']Salvation is not about being good; or doing good works; or any permutation of the above. One is saved by accepting a free work of grace that one is 100% powerless to accomplish on one's own. In the absense of this acceptance; one is lost.

No, you can't motivate people to do good, at least in the long term, by scaring them.

Once again--it ain't about good--or a relative lack of bad behavior. It is about being saved--born again.

Fear sometimes works quite well as an inducement to Salvation.

It is a sophistry that Evangelical or "Born Again" folk are some sort of fringe abberation. Mainline Christianity is Evangelical and "Born Again". Even many of the appostate denominations are Evangelical and "Born Again" in their official doctrine--even if they don't actually preach it anymore.

Once again, "The Rapture" is simply a term Biblical scholars have used to describe an EVENT that [color="#ff0000"]IS[/color] discussed in the Bible. Thessalonions mentions being "Caught up". You can call this event "The Turnip" if you want to. I don't think that turnips are mentioned anywhere in the Bible--that says nothing about the existence--or nonexistence of the EVENTS designated by the term "Turnip" or "Rapture"--or any other term you choose to denote the EVENT with.

......RVM45 <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />[/quote]

I have to disagree with the just being saved and born again part... if this is true where is the salvation for the righteous who were before Yeshua sacrifice? Noah, King David, King Solomon, Moses, Avraham, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets, etc.

Psalm 40:6-8 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

This has not changed- Not only does Psalm 40 foreshadow Yeshua here on earth- but it shows God desire for obedience over any sacrifice including the sacrifice of His Son... Sacrifice came because of disobedience... this is why Yeshua's words were constantly "I come to do the will of my Father" in other words "I have come to be obedient to my Father's charge...

There is more to all of this than the church's teach, and more than I have been able to put here.
All i realy know is that nothing is certain in this life, i like to think that if i love my wife and kids, my country and myself, then i am doing ok. and i say if the rapture is coming then.........bring it on <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />

If it aint raining, it aint training
#55'm lost here...

What happens if you accidentally flip through channels on satelite and your remote gets stuck on a porno for just a second, right smack in the middle of one of them real explicit scenes and you see it. Is that a sin? If so, then do you have to be saved all over again?

If your buddy shows you a gun and you think: Ooooh I really like that, I want one. Is that a sin? It is a form of coveting, I've been told...

I you see a pretty woman and you accidentally imagine her nude...that's a sin, right? So, if you're saved and you do it...are considered Hitler and all them? Or do you get a free pass?

EXPLAIN CATHOLOCISM TO ME. Sin all week long, ask forgiveness on Saturday/Sunday and you're fine. Isn't that kinda like slapping God in the face? (No offense Catholics, I'm just wondering here)

IF a husband talks dirty to his wife during that a sin?

If a husband fantasizes about his wife being that a sin?

Are cusswords a sin? (with the exception of the GD word...I know that one is)

How can sex be strictly procreative when it is proven to be chemically tied into our system as a pleasure act?

A lot of Christians are all torn up about streets of gold and such...why would God pave Heaven with an earthly ore? Isn't lusting after Earthly things a sin?

If I get saved, but my idea of Heaven is the mountains of E. KY where I can camp all the time and fish and that a sin? Or will that be the place I go when I die?

Like I say, really and honestly, no offense meant...but these are questions I've had for a long time.
Ron Hood 6/21/11. God needed another good one for his outfit.

Plan ahead. Bring a machete.

"Then I remembered: America is afraid of cap guns, which no longer exist. Of bottle rockets and pocketknives and Islamo-Mahmuds curled beneath the bed. And America is afraid of children. Puzzled boys of eleven are led from school in handcuffs for possession of a water pistol. A cop who would do it ought to go into hiding from embarrassment, but nothing embarrases anyone any longer. Ye gods and little catfish, I thought. Bob’s right. The country is afraid. Of everything." -- Fred Reed. Free Fall: Conversations with Bob. 2010.
[quote name='Skynny Lynyrd' post='313657' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:44 AM']See?[/quote]

<img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='^_^' />
"The first law...should be nailed on every cot. The first law. This world's job is to take everything from you. Yours is not to let it."   -Woman and Scarecrow

If I never had to use my intellect again, I wouldn't mind.

A real survival board game!?
At the risk of driving poor Robbo to drink...

Skynny, those are valid questions. You and I both know that we could quote scripture all day long and get nowhere, because folks choose (yes CHOOSE) to interpret it:

1. The only way they've ever been taught.

2. The way that supports their views.

3. The right way...and that is the way of the original Author. God.

I have gone through bone-shaking times of terror thinking that I'd outdone God's patience and mercy with me, that I didn't deserve His mercy or love anymore, and that I could lose my salvation. A strong brother in Christ led me to 1 John.

If I give you a list of scriptures, it's because I have confidence in God to teach what I cannot or do not have the wisdom and right to teach. I'm not the teacher. God is.

Please give Romans 1-8 a prayerful read.

Romans 7 talks about the Christian who sins.

1 John 1-5 (the whole book) talks about salvation and is directly tied (born in the spirit is what I'm referencing here) to Romans 1-8...particularly Romans 8.

But, as mankind is proven to do...we interpret it wrong because WE ARE interpreting it.

I've learned that it's vain (in every sense of the word) to ask God to help me. It's still ME doing it, right? That's the problem!

I've learned that it's time for me to step aside and say something like: "God, I'm failing and I don't trust even myself anymore. I do trust You though and I need You to step in and take over for me now. Please be what I cannot be. Do what I cannot do. Provide the words to say that will leave an impact. Work in and through me for YOUR glory and THEIR benefit. Thank you for what You will do."

I'm not strong in faith. But I have just enough faith to trust that the God who made everything can find a way to work with and through an idiot like me.

1. He can find a way to talk to me so that I know it's HIM and not me.

2. He can give me words to speak even as I open my mouth.

3. He can give me strength, patience, wisdom, and self discipline to do and say what it right.

Dear brother, I really hope that helps in some small way.

Much love!

Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

-Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not on unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

- Proverbs 3:5-6

Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. Let all that you do be done with love.

-1 Corinthians 16:13-14

I will henceforth remember June 21st as Ron Hood The Woodsmaster Day.

An outstanding leader, mentor and friend, Ron was an example to us all. Rest in the arms of Jesus, Brother Ron, until we meet again.
Well, I see that I told a whopper...

To answer what I took as a sincere Question: [color="#00ff00"]Once Saved; always safe[/color].

Can I...Can I...Can I...?????

Yes, theoretically you could. If you still wanna--and don't feel any guilt over it--you might seriously ask youself if you were truly sincere when you prayed for Salvation. Many folks frequently stick in a sort of "Insurance Prayer"...

"Oh Lord, I prayed for Salvation before. To the best of my concious knowledge, I was sincere; and didn't leave anything out--or to chance. Nonetheless, if I somehow, someway, missed the boat back then--[color="#ff0000"]then[/color] [color="#ff0000"]save me NOW![/color][color="#000000"]"

God expects you to shape up subsequent to your Salvation--for a number of reasons--but you don't go to heaven on the basis of how good you were; before or after Salvation.

My own denomination tends toward an ill-considered Wesleynism. The Southern and Missionary Baptists are amongst the most correct insofar as their Doctrines of Eternal Security.

When precisely one starts to covet or lust is a matter of some controversy. Don't sweat it. Handle it as best you can. Pray to avoid temptation. And above all--Hey Dude!!!--It won't be on the final...

.....RVM45 <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' /> [/color]
There are only Two Types of People in the World:

A.} People who are After My Guns;


B.} People who are Not After My Guns.

Though I am forced to live in exile, in the Twenty-First century; I am still proud to be a Citizen of the Twentieth Century.

[quote name='RVM45' post='313750' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:42 PM']My own denomination tends toward an ill-considered Wesleynism.[/quote]

Having recently read up on this I'm going to guess Nazarene?

edited to take out an unneeded comma.
Men are, that they might have joy.
[quote name='RVM45' post='313698' date='Dec 30 2008, 10:35 AM']Nothing could be farther from the truth. It takes colossal arrogance to think that you are "Better" than anyone; or more deserving of God's grace.


Okay, gonna stray from the topic for a sec...and probably invite a bunch of flames. Oh well, here goes...

Why is it that I hear so many religious people say that their religion is "better", "The Truth", or that they are "more deserving of God's grace" than other religions when they have no solid foundation for such a claim? Maybe it's just where I've spent my life, but it seems that Christians and Muslims fall into this trap more than any others.

One of my friends is a fine example. She is Assembly of God (a type of Protestant), and she firmly believes that all Catholics will go to hell because they violate one of the 10 Commandments (you know, the one about worshipping craven images - ie the Saints, Mother Mary, and such). Oh, and she doesn't think that Catholics are Christians at all.

My uncle is another example. According to him, unless you adhere to his religious beliefs (he's a Baptist), that you are going to hell because "2+2 will always equal 4. You can't argue with The Truth." (his exact words) I have yet to figure out what makes his "Truth" more right than anybody else's "Truth", what criteria makes it "Truth", and how it can be proven just like 2+2 can be proven.

I can name a very large number of examples, from just about every religion (for some reason, Bhuddist Monks are the ones I can't find any dirt on <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Huh' /> Maybe they're on to something). There are those in every religion that have a "My way is right, yours is wrong, and you're going to hell for it" kind of mentality. I have seen this so many times that it's made me "turn my back" as it were, and do some research.

I've found that there's just as much evidence for the validity of the Bible as there is for the Quaran, the Greek and Roman Pantheons, the belifs of Native Americans, etc. There's more evidence that Ghandi lived than Jesus. When you boil down all the rhetoric, fire, brimstone, and fatwahs, nobody knows who's right, who's wrong, and there's only one person that knows for sure and he hasn't said anything in a few millenia (if he even said anything in the first place). Everything (and I mean everything from Holy Books to speeches to parables to legends) has been subject to the imperfection of human understanding and interpretation for so long that there's no way to tell what's still original and what was invented or changed.

I guess my point is this: If one says that their belifs are more correct than another's, do they truly follow those beliefs and are a fine example of them? That's the problem with believing in a being that doesn't ever speak back to you in ways that aren't dated, or aren't clear and concise: you can never be really sure what he wants from you.

Just in case anybody's wondering, no I'm not an Athiest or a Wiccan. I don't think there's anything except Agnostic that can describe what I believe, but that's not completely accurate either. Do I believe that there's something bigger than us up there? Yep. Do I think anybody down here knows what that thing is or wants? Nope, it's all speculation. If there was one clear, unchallengeable answer, then there wouldn't be all these different ideas, now would there?

Maybe we were meant to have a multitude of different religions to cater to all the different viewpoints that humans have. Now there's a thought....

Sorry if I made anybody's face turn several shades of red with anger at this one. Just some issues that have been nagging at me since I first got the "this is how you hold your hands when you pray" speech when I was a wee little one.
It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.
- Epictetus

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
- Red Green

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