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Why Does Blackwater Guard Our Embassies?
#16
[quote name='kldimond' post='160214' date='Sep 19 2007, 01:10 PM']I've been interested by the Blackwater involvement in Iraq, in Katrina and other places.



Since you know the facts, Iraq Ninja, let me ask you a few questions...



How many Blackwater members are from countries other than the U.S?



How many Blackwater members are willing to violate the U.S. Constitution, should they be called on by the government to violate rights (rob people of their firearms, enforce completely illegal curfews, etc.)?



How many Blackwater members are assassins who are perfectly willing to silence "dissenters"?



This is what I'm hearing about Blackwater: great soldiers, but many (not all) are committed only to the money. I.e., worse than lawyers (snicker) about doing anything for a buck. I'm also hearing that many are the most fearsome assassins form other countries.



What can you tell us to ease our concerns over such things? Yes, you, I trust, are a good guy and probably would be fearsome in defense of the U.S. Constitution. What are the percentages, though, and how do we have assurance that a Hillary government won't take advantage of that?[/quote]



all the contractors i ever saw in iraq were kept on a fairly short leash. static defense, small convoys, and some PSD. never saw civilians on patrol or any offensive maneuvers. i would also like to see where you got this information



per the blackwater site, you must be a US citizen to gain employment with them. there goes that idea
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#17
[quote name='praharin' post='160438' date='Sep 19 2007, 05:08 PM'][quote name='kldimond' post='160214' date='Sep 19 2007, 01:10 PM']I've been interested by the Blackwater involvement in Iraq, in Katrina and other places.



Since you know the facts, Iraq Ninja, let me ask you a few questions...



How many Blackwater members are from countries other than the U.S?



How many Blackwater members are willing to violate the U.S. Constitution, should they be called on by the government to violate rights (rob people of their firearms, enforce completely illegal curfews, etc.)?



How many Blackwater members are assassins who are perfectly willing to silence "dissenters"?



This is what I'm hearing about Blackwater: great soldiers, but many (not all) are committed only to the money. I.e., worse than lawyers (snicker) about doing anything for a buck. I'm also hearing that many are the most fearsome assassins form other countries.



What can you tell us to ease our concerns over such things? Yes, you, I trust, are a good guy and probably would be fearsome in defense of the U.S. Constitution. What are the percentages, though, and how do we have assurance that a Hillary government won't take advantage of that?[/quote]



all the contractors i ever saw in iraq were kept on a fairly short leash. static defense, small convoys, and some PSD. never saw civilians on patrol or any offensive maneuvers. i would also like to see where you got this information



per the blackwater site, you must be a US citizen to gain employment with them. there goes that idea

[/quote]





My source is a friend who saw an interview with the author of this book:

[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560259795?ie=UTF8&tag=livelsurvi-20"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156025979...g=livelsurvi-20[/url] "Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army," by Jeremy Scahill. At least he thinks that's the book. The interview was on CSPAN, maybe, or LinkTV four or five months ago.



Per Scahill (again, presuming this is the guy and the book), Blackwater has used mercenaries from other countries--my friend thinks Pinochet's Guards, as a for instance. If it's true, there must be exceptions to the rule stated on their website about U.S. citizens only.



In the interview my friend saw, Blackwater was accused of being used by U.S. corporations as guards of questionable claims in, for instance, South America. The example was an ancient well that somehow all of a sudden "belonged" to some U.S. corporation, which led to an uprising (the people didn't want to die of dehydration and didn't have the dough for the water) which was put down mercilessly.



...



Now, maybe this is all horseshit, and maybe it's all something that's being concealed. It's hard to say, and given the actions of our government and many corporations, it's hard to pass it off automatically as nonsense. It's sad that we're at this point in our society, where many of us can believe just about anything, because of what we've seen or know about.



If anyone has better information, I'm all ears. I'd LOVE to feel better about things...
Freedom--to be a fool or only thought one, to do well or to do poorly, with only one restraint known as accountability--is the best that philanthopy--and sustainable civilization--have to offer. It's also what the U.S. Founders tried to create and make sustainable against the vicissitudes of collective folly.



Sworn officers, know your oath. Understand its priorities and abide by them. This is a first step in restoring proper order in our social systems...
#18
Sorry to be unoriginal but...

[quote name='dravine' post='160130' date='Sep 19 2007, 07:50 AM']I like to see private sector firms getting into things like that. This nation has proven time and time again that innovation and adaptation happens much faster in the open market than it does from within a large bureaucracy.[/quote]Dito



And...



[quote name='dravine']Got any references to these allegations I could read?[/quote]Dito <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ..."

- President Thomas Jefferson
#19
[quote name='kldimond' post='160491' date='Sep 19 2007, 08:37 PM']My source is a friend who saw an interview with the author...



In the interview my friend saw, Blackwater was accused...[/quote]



Seems like we are getting pretty far out on that limb.



Quote:It's sad that we're at this point in our society, where many of us can believe just about anything, because of what we've seen or know about.



If anyone has better information, I'm all ears. I'd LOVE to feel better about things...
I am new to the forum and don't know who you are so please don't take offense but <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' /> , seems like if you would LOVE to feel better one step in that direction would be to belive less of what you HEAR and take more things with a grain of salt.



Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear.... And sometimes thats too generous
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ..."

- President Thomas Jefferson
#20
[quote name='Iraq Ninja' post='160203' date='Sep 19 2007, 12:44 PM']While I respect everyone's right to say what they want, pure speculation without validation is IMHO is just speculation. I know the facts, I know the story, and you sir our wrong.[/quote]



Well, my sources were other contractors, smaller than Blackwater, who may have had different experiences than you did. Or, they might have been wrong, or I might have been wrong. If so, I stand corrected. But I do wonder what data might there be on contractor casualties, and how that data is collected. Aren't there beaucoup contractors there, with no central control?



Respectfully,



Mariner
#21
[quote name='Mariner' post='160565' date='Sep 20 2007, 12:19 AM'][quote name='Iraq Ninja' post='160203' date='Sep 19 2007, 12:44 PM']While I respect everyone's right to say what they want, pure speculation without validation is IMHO is just speculation. I know the facts, I know the story, and you sir our wrong.[/quote]



Well, my sources were other contractors, smaller than Blackwater, who may have had different experiences than you did. Or, they might have been wrong, or I might have been wrong. If so, I stand corrected. But I do wonder what data might there be on contractor casualties, and how that data is collected. Aren't there beaucoup contractors there, with no central control?



Respectfully,



Mariner

[/quote]



Oh there's central control. Think of it like being a housing contractor, and hiring out subcontractors. In this case, the DOD is the general contractor, and they get bids on jobs from the various PMC's. They are subject to performance reviews, just like any other type of contractor. It's not as wild west as people would like to think. It was a big crazier early on, but shit, the whole OP was fucked up at the start.



As to the PMC's only doing guard duty, that's not necessarily the case. I have a video of blackwater guys doing overwatch and raining hell down on some mahdi army dudes. Yes, I know it's blackwater, because they produced the video.
Welcome to the internet, you're probably taking it too seriously.

What you see is the result of the perspective you choose.

"Knowledge isn't wisdom unless it's empirical." - My own damn self.

Grand Rapids Michigan
#22
And all of this means What?



Everyone should put their "Reasonable" or "Common Sense" cap on and think logically about what is being said and not with their emotions.



Blackwater is not some rogue organization running around like you see in the movies. Are they squeaky clean? Not saying that.



What I am saying is that there is a lot of conjecture being dredged up and critical thinking is falling by the wayside.



End of Rant.



Dave
Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!


#23
Agree, way too much speculation and treating second-hand rumors as facts. Let's keep accusatory conversations to what we know, not crap we heard from a friend (who isn't here) over a beer. You don't know what you don't know.
"Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves."

Money and Wealth in the New Millennium, by Norm Franz.
#24
There was a time when central governments did not have armies doing everything we have our military and naval forces doing now. In fact we did not start to build a national army of any import until after the War of 1812 when it was discovered that militiamen were reluctant to invade the British colonial territory governed by Hudson's Bay Company.



Lincoln's security prior to the declaration of war against the CSA and Texas was provided by one Alan Pinkerton who operated a private intelligence and operations apparatus throughout the duration of the conflict. It is quite possible that had Pinkerton been responsible for Lincoln's security he might not have been assassinated at the time and place he was. Kellogg-Brown-Root, a contractor, has had contracts for providing services to our military/naval complex since the 1930s when they were represented by a congressman named Lyndon Baines Johnson. (A note here is that Halliburton has spun off KBR to concentrate on its energy services business.)



The air force privatized food service in the 70s. But these were no really military functions until the late 19th century--they were performed by "camp followers" or sutlers who provided services to military forces for a fee.



There is nothing wrong with contracting governmental services--embassy security is not an essential function of naval infantry.



So Blackwater, in their security function, used lethal force. That was the expectation and a natural consequence of the situation. Had Marines been there, the outcome would not have been different.



The sad thing is that we have not contracted with two or three top operations for the elimination of Osama bin Laden. We have full authority under the Constitution to issue letters of marque and reprisal.



Lobo Viejo
The older I get, the better I was...



When guns are outlawed, the price will go up.



In a true democracy there are no protections for dissenters. The options are silence, banishment and hemlock.
#25
Order # 17 Spells out the parameters of the Contractors in Iraq,it is possable it will be modified but it protects our contractors from falling under Iraqi jurisdiction.

Grizz the book is interesting but what a knockdown........Tasteless wrap around glasses?Well I don't like them either but how is this a reflection on Blackwater????
#26
I would like to say, that the private companies that run the mess halls do an outstanding job. I miss the DFAC almost as much as I miss my comrades.



I never had bad food on post.
Welcome to the internet, you're probably taking it too seriously.

What you see is the result of the perspective you choose.

"Knowledge isn't wisdom unless it's empirical." - My own damn self.

Grand Rapids Michigan
#27
[quote name='Don-S' post='160562' date='Sep 19 2007, 09:10 PM'][quote name='kldimond' post='160491' date='Sep 19 2007, 08:37 PM']My source is a friend who saw an interview with the author...



In the interview my friend saw, Blackwater was accused...[/quote]



Seems like we are getting pretty far out on that limb.



Quote:It's sad that we're at this point in our society, where many of us can believe just about anything, because of what we've seen or know about.



If anyone has better information, I'm all ears. I'd LOVE to feel better about things...
I am new to the forum and don't know who you are so please don't take offense but <img src='http://www.hoodswoods.net/IVB/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' /> , seems like if you would LOVE to feel better one step in that direction would be to belive less of what you HEAR and take more things with a grain of salt.



Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear.... And sometimes thats too generous[/quote]



Don-S,



Hmm. Thought I had a reply out on this one.



Didn't I?



Let me paraphrase: I need information, not bromides or dismissiveness. Lying to myself, or simply blowing off bad news as "it can't be real," does not preserve my sense of equanimity, and it certainly doesn't restore it.





Lobo Viejo,

Yes, Letters of marque and reprisal are a real deal, and would be appropriate to carry out via groups like Blackwater. But, observing the U.S.'s behavior in, for instance, South America and Mexico, I am not confident that our government hasn't gone off the deep end in using them for mercantilistic, imperialistic causes. Observing the government's behavior during Katrina, including use of Blackwater, I am not confident that silencing dissent isn't as much what it's about as anything. A distinctly unamerican approach, that is, if it is for real.



Generally...

I should read the bloody book--as if I had time. Then I could at least pose up specific events for someone to refute (or not). Still, the most salient things pointed up so far are that Blackwater has a statement that they only hire U.S. citizens (conflicts with the author's statement, so there's something to check out), and the comments from contractors who have commented on their personal experience, which may or may not reflect the whole of what the government is contracting. These are useful.



What I find very compelling is the amount of "Oh, it can't be that bad" being said out there with little or no foundation. Exactly what non-Jewish Hitler supporters in early-Hitler Germany said to non-Jew dissenters. I find it freakishly familiar and concerning.
Freedom--to be a fool or only thought one, to do well or to do poorly, with only one restraint known as accountability--is the best that philanthopy--and sustainable civilization--have to offer. It's also what the U.S. Founders tried to create and make sustainable against the vicissitudes of collective folly.



Sworn officers, know your oath. Understand its priorities and abide by them. This is a first step in restoring proper order in our social systems...
#28
[quote name='kldimond' post='160749' date='Sep 20 2007, 02:40 PM']What I find very compelling is the amount of "Oh, it can't be that bad" being said out there with little or no foundation. Exactly what non-Jewish Hitler supporters in early-Hitler Germany said to non-Jew dissenters. I find it freakishly familiar and concerning.[/quote]



I was not impressed with Blackwaters role in the Katrina goat fuck. That said, I don't feel that the problem was with blackwater directly, but with the people who gave them their marching orders.



Blackwater didn't do anything during that time frame that the local police (well, ok blackwater didn't steal caddillacs and run for the hills), FBI, and other agencies weren't doing. All of it was wrong. Disarming legal citizens was not right, regardless of who was sent to do it.
Welcome to the internet, you're probably taking it too seriously.

What you see is the result of the perspective you choose.

"Knowledge isn't wisdom unless it's empirical." - My own damn self.

Grand Rapids Michigan
#29
[quote name='kldimond' post='160749' date='Sep 20 2007, 01:40 PM']......

Lobo Viejo,

Yes, Letters of marque and reprisal are a real deal, and would be appropriate to carry out via groups like Blackwater. But, observing the U.S.'s behavior in, for instance, South America and Mexico, I am not confident that our government hasn't gone off the deep end in using them for mercantilistic, imperialistic causes. Observing the government's behavior during Katrina, including use of Blackwater, I am not confident that silencing dissent isn't as much what it's about as anything. A distinctly unamerican approach, that is, if it is for real.



......



What I find very compelling is the amount of "Oh, it can't be that bad" being said out there with little or no foundation. Exactly what non-Jewish Hitler supporters in early-Hitler Germany said to non-Jew dissenters. I find it freakishly familiar and concerning.[/quote]



Let us be clear. Various administrations, the current one included, have utilized private organizations in South America and Mexico. "Major Funston" of the Cuban resistance in 1898 was on the State Department payroll. I am not saying this is good. However, there is less damage to the constitution by operating through third parties than by the FBI exercising its powers anywhere outside the physical boundaries of the United States and its territories.



Immediately after September 11, 2001, there was a groundswell of support for a "War on Terror" which resurrected Louis Freeh's PATRIOT Act and Gary Hart's paper on Homeland Security. Like all "crises" before, 9/11 has been used for a power grab. Do not think for a moment that the situation is going to get better--this has been going on since 1794. And it has been incremental so it has crept up on us. The invasion of Iraq had great support and the war was over in 45 days. The occupation is a different matter and "democratic support" began to drop. NOte that we occupied the German Federal Republic for 40 years and it took ten years to subdue Werewolf, the national socialist resistance. Note that we have been in a ceasefire in Korea without a treaty for 54 years on a police action that had no congressional authorization.



Unfortunately there will not be a discussion of this nationally since next week there will be another crisis dujour. I don't have answers. Whatever we do will not bode well for freedom, either at home or abroad.



Lobo Viejo
The older I get, the better I was...



When guns are outlawed, the price will go up.



In a true democracy there are no protections for dissenters. The options are silence, banishment and hemlock.
#30
Thank you Lobo Viejo.....very informative and very succinct!



Well said.



Dave
Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps!




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