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Best Ammunition For Your Defensive Firearm
Preface by Chuck Hawks

I decided to reproduce this rather long piece here partly because it is clearly the author's desire that it be widely disseminated. Another part is that it makes interesting reading, and I enjoy a good read as much as anyone. Although the author has some strong opinions, they are informed opinions, and worthy of careful consideration. Enjoy Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm


This is a guide to help you select the best ammunition for your defensive firearm. Most of these opinions are based upon the work of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow, police officers who have extensively studied the issue of firearms, ammunition and stopping power. I refer all interested parties to the excellent series by Ayoob ('In the Gravest Extreme,''Stressfire,' 'The Semi-Automatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense', 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun') and the comprehensive book 'Stopping Power' by Marshall and Sanow.

A perfect example of this are the silly 1989-90 FBI tests which resulted in the FBI choosing the mediocre 10mm S&W Model 1076 and the 180 grain JHP round. For this reason, I have chosen to rely on Ayoob, Marshall, and Sanow when it comes to selecting my ammunition and strongly advise you do the same. What follows is essentially a distillation of their opinions. I urge you to research the sources listed for a more detailed discussion than is possible here.

Self Defense Ammunition

Generally American ammunition is the best in the world. Stick to Federal, Cor-Bon, Remington, Winchester or CCI (the Big Five) ammunition. Some foreign stuff is pretty good (PMC, IMI-Samson, Fiocci), some foreign stuff is great (Dynamit-Nobel, Norma, GECO), some foreign stuff is practice-only junk (e.g. CDM - Mexico, military surplus), but no foreign stuff is anywhere near as good as domestic ammunition when it comes to vanquishing hostile attackers. Buy American.

Never use hand-loaded or re-loaded ammunition for self-defense! You may encounter some joker who says he can hand-load ammunition so powerful it will knock anything on two legs down for the count, but don't buy it. This junk will either misfire or ruin your gun. Use only fresh factory-loaded cartridges, period. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this rule: use factory-loaded cartridges only.


One should carry only hollowpoint ammunition in a defensive handgun. Hollowpoint ammunition has much better stopping power than full metal jacket or round-nose lead, and stopping power is what you need when being assaulted.The point is not to wound or kill the adversary: the point is to stop him in his tracks and make him cease attacking you. "Stopping power" (sometimes called "knock-down power") refers to a particular bullet's ability to incapacitate an attacker - the greater that ability, the less chance that your attacker will be able to continue shooting, stabbing, or beating you after you have shot him. Handguns are not death-rays; despite what you see in the movies, the vast majority of people shot with handguns survive (over 80%). Handguns are weak compared to rifles and shotguns, and thus you want every edge you can get.

Great ammunition is no more expensive than mediocre ammunition, so carry the best. Rifles and shotguns have stopping power to spare; handguns do not. Thus you must select your handgun load very carefully, and the detail of the handgun ammunition section reflects this.Hollowpoint ammunition is NOT more lethal than ball (full metal jacket) ammunition. You may have seen media hype about "killer dum-dum bullets" but this is nonsense. Hollowpoint bullets usually expand and stop in the human body, and thus the attacker absorbs much more of the bullet's kinetic energy than if the bullet had merely zipped through him and left two small holes. Hollowpoint ammunition is also safer for all parties concerned.* You are safer because your attacker is more likely to be incapacitated after one or two shots and thus unable to fire back, stab you, or whatever. The decreased likelihood of your attacker dying from hollowpoint bullets saves you the moral and legal complications and expense you will experience from killing a man.

* Innocent bystanders are safer because hollowpoint bullets are less likely to exit the attacker's body and go on to injure anyone else. The ricochet danger is also much lower than that of ball ammunition, and hollowpoint bullets are less likely to penetrate walls or doors and strike uninvolved third parties. Furthermore, if your foe is incapacitated quickly he won't be spraying wild bullets around, endangering uninvolved third parties.* Lastly, your attacker is safer because he is far less likely to die from one or two hollowpoint bullets than the five or six round-nose slugs you would have had to fire to put him down. Most gunshot deaths occur from shock and loss of blood, and ball rounds tend to make entry and exit wounds, whereas hollowpoints go in and stay put. An attacker shot twice with ball ammo will probably have four holes in him rather than two, and is thus in far greater danger of death from blood loss. If you can avoid killing your attacker you should, for both moral and legal reasons.

There are some exceptions to the "carry only hollowpoints in a handgun" rule. Some older or cheaper automatic pistols, will jam with hollowpoint rounds. With these guns one must use ball rounds (or "full metal jacket" rounds - the terms are synonymous), and I specify "reliable with ball only" models by caliber. It is crucial for you to test your pistol to make certain it is reliable with specific loads - don't rely on my advice. My life will never depend on the reliability of your handgun. Your life may.


Generally speaking, hollowpoint bullets are the best choice for rifles. Some soft-point designs are recommended, and these will be specified.


Use buckshot. Slugs and birdshot are useful in some limited and uncommon situations.

A Note On Exotic Ammunition

There are several exotic ammunition designs on the market today, such as the Glaser Safety Slug, Mag-Safe, GECO BAT 9mm, Thunderzap, et cetera. Generally speaking, I recommend that you avoid them. Exotic ammunition is expensive, inaccurate, and often unreliable. These rounds cost so much ($2-$4 each) that you will never practice with them and thus will not be certain of their reliability and accuracy in your gun. This is a big mistake: you should not carry a particular type of ammunition until you have fired at least 150 rounds through your semi-automatic gun to ensure reliable feeding (this doesn't really apply to revolvers, but you should still fire the ammunition you intend to carry to assure yourself of its accuracy).

'Glaser Safety Slugs' are one exotic round I can fully recommend, but only for revolvers in a few scenarios. The Glaser is a proven man-stopper and has very good quality control, but may not feed or cycle reliably in your automatic pistol. Because you cannot afford to fire enough Glasers to establish that it feeds reliably in your pistol (i.e. 100 test-fire rounds will cost $300), I cannot recommend them for pistol owners (if you insist on Glasers, carry one in the chamber and load the magazine with a proven hollowpoint. Be aware, however, that the Glaser may not have the power to cycle your slide, and thus you may be carrying a single-shot gun. You can always cycle the slide manually, of course, but this takes time and both hands; two things you may not be able to spare when fighting for your life. The Walther PPK, H&K P7 series and SIG P230 are notorious for this failure-to-cycle problem with Glaser Safety Slugs).

With revolvers feeding is not an issue, of course, but there are other factors to consider. The Glaser is designed for easy break-up and minimal penetration, which is great for cutting down ricochet and over-penetration dangers but drastically limits its ability to penetrate light cover between you and your foe. A car window, hollow-core door, or even thick winter clothing between you and your assailant can cause the Glaser to disintegrate and leave him unharmed. Bad news for you....great news for him.

There are some situations where the Glaser is a good choice, however. I keep my bedside .357 revolver loaded with .38 Special+P Glasers because I live in a thin-walled apartment building and want to be able to put down an intruder rapidly without worrying about injuring my neighbors. I chose .38 over .357 Magnums because I am likely to be in a just-awakened daze and would rather not be blinded and disoriented by the flash, kick and blast of firing a .357 Magnum in a (probably darkened) room. You may have a similar situation (e.g. retail store defense) where injury to third parties is of concern, and you'll likely be facing an assailant at extremely close range where the Glaser's inaccuracy and inability to penetrate cover will not be drawbacks. In these narrowly defined scenarios, the Glaser is a good choice, but keep a couple of speedloaders of hollowpoints handy, just in case. I do.

Glaser Safety Slugs are available in "Blue" or "Silver" versions. The latter are a little heavier for better penetration, but performance is similar. I would be happy with either, but Sanow prefers the Silver. It's up to you.

Mag-Safes are imitations of Glasers, and I cannot recommend them due to poor quality control. Reliability is the number one requirement of a self-defense handgun, and Mag-Safes don't make the grade.

GECO "Blitz Action Trauma" or BAT 9mm rounds from Germany are a proven design. Called the "GECO Action Safety" in Europe, this is a high velocity (1400 feet per second) lightweight (86 grain) hollow bullet that has proven itself to be very reliable and successful on the street. I recommend them, but they are very tough to find. Save yourself the trouble and use a good American-made hollowpoint.

Thunderzaps are ultra-lightweight bullets made of aluminum. They are made in .38 Special caliber only, as of this writing, and have not yet been proven on the street.Other exotics are best avoided. You may occasionally encounter "Omni-Shocks," "Terminators," "Annihilators," "Kaswer Law Grabbers," and other such marginalia in gun shops. Stay away. If you want to gamble, go to an Indian reservation. Don't gamble with your life, or the lives of others. Glasers and GECO 9mm BATs are the only proven exotics.


I have tried to keep specialized technical jargon to a minimum, but it will be helpful for you to understand a few terms and acronyms:

- 'Ball' is round-nosed metal jacketed ammunition. It is used for self-loading firearms like pistols. All military pistol and rifle ammunition uses full metal jacket bullets. Synonyms for ball include FMJ ("full metal jacket"), MC ("metal case") and TMJ ("totally metal jacketed," a term used only by the ammunition maker CCI). Ball rounds do not expand and are always the worst choice in a defensive round. The military uses ball because it feeds well (i.e. rarely jams), penetrates far, and the military is required to use ball under the Geneva Convention. Fortunately, you are free to choose better ammunition, and should use ball for practice only.

- 'Wadcutters' and 'semi-wadcutters' are sharp-shouldered revolver bullets with an odd cylindrical appearance. True wadcutters are very weak rounds used for target shooting only. Unless you own a .38 or .357 revolver, forget about these.- 'Jacketed soft-points' are jacketed bullets with exposed lead at the tip. These make poor defensive rounds for handguns but may be effective for rifles, due to the latter's high velocity. Never use JSP rounds in a handgun for self-defense. Never.

- 'Jacketed hollowpoints' are the best choice for handguns and most rifles. JHP rounds have a hollow cavity in the nose and usually expand (and stop) in the body of your attacker, transferring all their kinetic energy for maximum stopping power. They are the safest and best bullets available. JHP bullets are always best for self-defense.

-'Round-nose lead' (or RNL) are generally revolver bullets without any metal jacket around the bullet. These are worthless for self-defense, and I don't even use them at the range. If you come upon a bargain lot of RNL ammo, feel free to buy it for target practice. You will be scrubbing out your barel until the wee hours, however, as all-lead bullets scum up barrels something fierce. Use 'Flitz' metal polish to scour out the grimy residue.

*Full permission to reproduce and disseminate is hereby granted to any and all persons. No copyright is claimed or applies.
<span style='font-family:Optima'><i>"Sacred Cows make the tastiest hamburgers.." </i></span>

<span style='font-family:Optima'></span>

This argument has been going on for decades, and the FBI vs. Sanow/Marshall itteration is only the latest.

I have made quite a study of the data, as my field of expertise was as a Nuclear Security firearms and tactics instructor.

Without going into the details (they cover several books worth of data), I have been convinced that Sanow and Marshall's data has been "cooked" in order to support their theories.

In other words, I do not trust my life on the conclusions they have drawn, and published. You can do what you wish.

The database of information, arguments and counter-arguments is huge, and will never be completely resolved to everyone's satisfaction. The reason for that is EGO. Some folks just flat out refuse to change their position on something, once they have taken a stand, even if the evidence does not support their position. That is the way it is with this issue.

The real problem is the continuation of the myths by uneducated individuals who read Sanow/Marshall's books or articles, and accept the data without question. They then become entrenched alongside the others, and the argument continues.

The counter to Sanow & Marshall is Dr. Martin Fackler, of the US Army Letterman Institute. His credentials are beyond question.

If you wish to study this issue, then I would suggest you approach Dr. Fackler's data with an open mind.



[quote name='Bill Hay' date='Feb 11 2005, 10:06 AM']Warning!

This argument has been going on for decades, and the FBI vs. Sanow/Marshall itteration is only the latest.



For those of us not familiar with the topic, what argument are you referring to, and what are the FBI and Sanow/Marshall positions?
Howard Wallace
I have to agree with Bill there are no hard and fast answers to ammo. To date there is no such thing as a man stopper round. The larger calibers work better because of the blunt trauma aspect, but it all boils down to shot placement. If you get good solid hits any ammo can be effective. Up until a few years ago and maybe even today, I have not checked the stats lately, more people had been killed with 158 grain lead round nose .38 specials than any other round in the civilian sector.

Hell I do can tell you from personal experience I do not want to get shot with anything. Good high quality ammo that feeds or functions in your hand gun will always do the trick.

As I am laid up, and not at home, I do not have the resources to pursue this properly at this time. To me, and the majority of law enforcement, the issue is not of lethality. An ice pick is lethal, but no one would choose one for self defense.

The issue is affecting instantaneous incapacitation in an assailant. That, however, comes only with a central nervous system hit (CNS). That means brain or upper spinal cord. These are small targets, and the chance of hitting one during a fight is very difficult.

Therefore, the standard response to a lethal threat is to shoot to the center of mass (COM). Pistol rounds are weak, relative to rifle rounds, so the standard response is too rounds for the pistol, one for the rifle.

COM hits will not provide the instantaneous incapacitation like a CNS hit, so the best we can hope for is rapid incapacitation.

The bullets do damage to tissue, and the destruction of vital structures (heart & major veins and arteries) causes the loss of blood, and that results in incapacitation. The larger the bullet, the deeper it is driven, the larger the wound channel, and the larger/faster the blood loss.

Sanow/Marshall’s claim is that light bullets, driven to high velocities, result in better stopping of assailants.

Their data gathering is suspect at best, and some claim it is massaged to support their choice of cartridges. No one in the industry can verify their claims, because they use data that others have no access to. In the research h business, that is a non-starter.

Dr. Fackler/FBI claim that a minimum depth must be achieved because MOST of LEO shootings involve oblique angles. This means that the hits do not go straight into the front of the chest, with less than 1 inch of travel before striking the heart. In some big men, the bullet might have to travel 18 inches to penetrate the vital structures.

The idea here is that ONLY destruction of vital tissue will give you a hope of stopping an assailant in the time frame you require. It is of absolutely no comfort to know that the guy will die in the hospital an hour after he kills you.

So, the Cliff Notes version here is this: ONLY hits to the vital structures count (Like Steve said, you have to do your part to get solid hits), the bullet must penetrate between 12 – 18 inches in soft tissue, and the bullet must be as big as you can get it. If it expands, it will shorten the depth of penetration, if it is a round nose, it will punch through with little damage (relative to a hollow point’s damage).

All terms that relate to “stopping power”, “knockdown power”, “transfer of energy” are all signs that point to the Sanow/Marshall theories… Bullets to not stop anyone, nor do they knock anyone down. Basic high school physics will demonstrate that. Neither does the “energy transfer” have any value. How much energy is there in a bullet? A box of .45 ACP ammo dropped from 6 feet will hit with about the same energy as the bullet itself.

If they did not penetrate, and destroy tissue, we would be better served with ball bats.

Most of the time, a person hit with a bullet will stop, but that is a function of mind, and not mechanics. Anyone who has hunted knows firsthand of how far a heart shot deer can run. How long can a man function with his heart shot? 10-15 seconds.

Can you bet your life that he won’t empty his gun into you in that time?

The whole issue is much, much bigger than which round you carry… Mindset, drugs, anger, fear, insanity all drive an assailant far beyond a normal person’s endurance.

Now, add a leather coat, big man, oblique angle, on the move, you’re scared spitless, and hit him with one of Sanow/Marshall’s light, fast bullets that are tested to travel 8-10 inches in tissue.

That would be like hunting big, tough dangerous game with a light, fast bullet. Does not happen, does it?

Ask any hunter of dangerous game what kind of bullet they wound consider using…. .375 H&H mag, or a .223?

Anyway, don’t believe everything you read, do your own research…



Oh, yeah... The FBI says that no officer has been successfully sued because an innocent was shot THROUGH an assailant, but many officers have lost their lives because their bullets did not penetrate far enough.

Not being a security or firearms expert myself, I thought the article was informative, especially when confronted with the multitudes of ammunition available for self-defense in the market place.

The majority of uninitiated people like me, find themselves asking: Which type of ammunition do I need? Should I buy the full metal jackets, the hollow points, the soft points, the wadcutters, the semi-wadcutters, the slugs, the balls, etc.? All these terms sound really cool, but mean nothing without a frame of reference or a context to put them in.

The author may have some strong opinions regarding the various types of ammunitions, but in all honesty, who doesn't? You can speak to ten different people, and you'll more than likely end up with ten different opinions..

I agree wholeheartedly with you about shot placement being the key to real stopping power. A well placed .22 to the heart can kill someone just as surely as the most powerful .44 magnum round will. For that matter, a well-placed rock, flung with sufficient force, will kill a man under the right circumstances. It helps however, if the slinger has some general idea about how to properly choose the rocks for his sling..

Just my .02 worth

<span style='font-family:Optima'><i>"Sacred Cows make the tastiest hamburgers.." </i></span>

<span style='font-family:Optima'></span>
A few weeks ago, a smuggler ran over a Border Patrol Agent, and fled the scene. As he was pulling away from the scene, he was hit six times with .40 cal pistol rounds. Four to the body and two in the head. The hollow point, (man stoppers) passed through the windshield, before impacting the fleeing smuggler. The head shots, were not fatal, one lodged in his nasel cavity, and the other traveled around the skull under the skin.

After a chase, at times traveling over one hundred miles per hour, he stopped and surrendered. He got out of the car, and following commands, proned out and was hand cuffed. He as transported to a hospital, and is recovering.

The rounds all passed through the windshield. The hollow point rounds had opened up as they were designed to do. After passing through the windshield the rounds had lost the energy to penetrate the skull bones.

Perhaps, a heavy flat nosed, non expanding round would be a better choice for social work. It would not need to expand, just penetrate and cut a deep wound channel. Letting air in and blood out. This type pistol round works very well on large game animals.

He who hesitates is lost.

If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space.

Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

You can lead a fool to talk, but you can't make him think.

Sometimes I wake up grumpy, and sometimes I let her sleep.

There are damm few problems that can't be fixed, with a long handled shovel and a thirty ought six.
This issue is a huge point of contention, as you know MS...

Penetration through the windshield is one of the hardest things a pistol bullet has to contend with... A pistol is marginal in a fight at best, it just happens to be what a guy happens to have with him...

.308 be mobetter....

I'm completely surprised that the hollowpoints were not crushed closed by the windshield... And as for not having the energy to penetrate further, that is more the function of the round (.40 S&W) than the hollowpoint design, I think.

FBI tests show that the .357 wouldn't even do as well...

As for headshots, the "around the skull under the skin" business is common... The dome shape is a very strong structure, and most hits to the forehead don't penetrate. The bullet pretty much needs to hit the head between the eyebrows and upper lip... The "Occular Cranial Cavity"... So says the FBI and Dr. Fackler...

Then you have the guy who just does not know that he is supposed to lay down and die... Ain't no easy answers...

I talked to Jim Cirillo one day, from the original New York Stakeout Squad (they shot a bunch of people), and he has experienced the same thing with bullets skipping off the skull... Read his book, "Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights". Guy's funny as hell, and has seen a BUNCH of gunfights... Has very strong opinions that differ from everyone else...

But... I think that if I were serving in the environment that you are in, I would consider a bullet that penetrates the vehicle well... A deputy in the desert up around Barstow carries a Colt Delta Elite, full-house 10mm, with truncated cone bullets... He has no under penetration problems... <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />



My back up gun is a Glock model 20, 10 mm. I load it with 180 gr corbon, hollow points. I have not shot it through a windshield yet. I think I will conduct some tests. Windshield, car bodies, tires, stuff like that.

When you see that Deputy again, ask him what make of ammo he uses. I can't find truncated cone bullets, for my 10 mm.

He who hesitates is lost.

If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space.

Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

You can lead a fool to talk, but you can't make him think.

Sometimes I wake up grumpy, and sometimes I let her sleep.

There are damm few problems that can't be fixed, with a long handled shovel and a thirty ought six.

I wish I could. He attented a FBI Firearms Inst. class I was at, many years ago... I lost contact with him after a couple of years. Too bad, as there is some great fishing up thataway, if you know the right folks...

I would imagine that the market for 10 mm is pretty thin now? I haven't noticed, since I sold my Delta Elite several years ago... Possibly Black Hills would load something to your specs? I don't know if they do that.

Yeah, do some tests, I would be interested in the results... One of those smuggler's vehicles should do nicely, wouldn't you think? Maybe it wouldn't dissapear overnight...

<img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />


Yeah right, I can see the report now. "And the smuggler was dead when I found him." Works for me.

It is really a shame, about the 10 mm. I does almost everything better than any other round you can put in a duty pistol. Yet, because of some bad press, and the FBI down sizing to the .40 S&W, very few departments will let you carry it.

He who hesitates is lost.

If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space.

Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

You can lead a fool to talk, but you can't make him think.

Sometimes I wake up grumpy, and sometimes I let her sleep.

There are damm few problems that can't be fixed, with a long handled shovel and a thirty ought six.
Quote:Yeah right, I can see the report now. "And the smuggler was dead when I found him." Works for me.

Ummm... That's not what I meant, of course... I was referring to the vehicle you stopped, that developed a leaky radiator and flat tires... After the arrest, later that night, someone came in and drilled the motor.... Damn Minutemen!

Quote:It is really a shame, about the 10 mm. I does almost everything better than any other round you can put in a duty pistol. Yet, because of some bad press, and the FBI down sizing to the .40 S&W, very few departments will let you carry it.

(All the following is my personal opinion, and is likely to be off-base... Take it with a pinch of salt, shaken not stirred, and call me in the morning.)

From my limited perspective, the major problem with the 10mm is that not everyone can handle it. As we know, there are LEOs that can't handle a pistol of any caliber, with any degree of professionalism. I've seen way too many of them at Gunsite, Front Site, and on our own range.

The Glock's fat grip doesn't lend it to be used easily by most people, whose hands are too small... The Colt didn't stand up to the pounding, and I don't know if anyone else makes a 10mm at a reasonable price... Maybe SIG? There are not too many choices, and for my money, Glock is at the top of the heap...

The FBIs agents, from what I've seen, are no better than the average guy on the street, and the decision to downsize, rather than promote the .45, was a political decision.

The recoil of the 10mm is tough to get accurate doubles with in any kind of reasonable timeframe, and (my guess) 90+% can't shoot it accurately at all, because of the recoil.

Really, really bad flinches develop in poorly trained individuals when you introduce powerful recoil before they are ready. If you would need to stick one in a guy's ear at 30-40 yds, you might be able to do it, but 99% of the LEOs can't. And you cannot always go back to the unit for your carbine.

Because of the "over penetration" perspective, department chiefs, who are political animals, don't want to deal with the bad press... History would show, I think, that for the majority of departments, a more powerful pistol isn't the answer.

The answer lies in getting solid hits on the bad guy. Pistols are a poor choice for that. Many go to a carbine of some kind, they are easier to get hits with, and they are accepted by the public.

I know that the individual officer, in a struggle with a crackhead, could care less for that perspective, and I agree... The most powerful hand cannon he can carry is what he wants at that time... Unfortunately, so many are not capable of handling one, that the department management takes the safe route.

Anyway, like I said, my perspective could be distorted... I'm mostly familiar with California municipal departments.

On second thought, my perspective is almost certainly distorted... <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />

In your environment, I think you have a handle on your gear, I would be pleased to have you as a backup anytime...

Better yet, you go get 'em, and I'll stay here and nurse my old wounds...

I think I better shut up, now...


My department shot our yearly qualifiaction last week, and over half of the deputies had to shoot twice. I managed to get by with a score of 245 out of 250, must be getting old. And that was with my issue Beretta Cougar 8040, in .40 S&W. Damm thing shoots like a claw hammer. <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/2guns.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':2guns:' />

They finally authorized 1911's for duty carry, but I don't want to put night sights on my personal gun. And I can't bring myself to spend a grand on a duty pistol, that will be taken for evidence if I have to use it. <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' />

Oh well, time to stop sniviling.

He who hesitates is lost.

If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space.

Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

You can lead a fool to talk, but you can't make him think.

Sometimes I wake up grumpy, and sometimes I let her sleep.

There are damm few problems that can't be fixed, with a long handled shovel and a thirty ought six.
I'm thinking that Kimbers are less than a grand... If it's stainless, it won't rust much by the time you get the case adjudicated, and get it back...

<img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />

I can get a Kimber for $850.00 with the night sights. But that is still to damm much money, for a gun they will take and keep for a year or more. I have an old AMT Stainless, that will shoot with the best of them. But I would have to put new sights on it for duty carry.

I figure, if I can't see my sights, why am I shooting in the first place. Yes, I am getting to be to old and pig headed for this business.

He who hesitates is lost.

If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space.

Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

You can lead a fool to talk, but you can't make him think.

Sometimes I wake up grumpy, and sometimes I let her sleep.

There are damm few problems that can't be fixed, with a long handled shovel and a thirty ought six.

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